what constitutes a "kill"

[mancpal]

Hi

I'm just wondering how the figures for air kills were compiled. Was a kill the witnessed destruction of an enemy craft or could it also be when a damaged plane (or pilot) made a forced landing. Also would a plane that was forced out of battle but made it back to base be included.

Simon

[Khaki]

I think it depended on whose 'Air Force' was involved,

A witness to the destruction,

Locating the wreckage/remains

Aircraft forced down in 'friendly territory' subsequent capture of aircraft/crew

there may be others

khaki

[quemerford]

I think 'kill' is inappropriate as a WWI term: claim, loss or victory maybe?

[mancpal]

Quemerford

I only use the term "kill" as I have both heard and read it used many times, the war in the air is not by any means my usual field of research. Do you have any knowledge of the original question which may further my cause?

Simon

[trajan]

All I know on the matter is strictly OffT, as WW2 related, but perhaps worth mentioning - in the USAAF, as I was told, towards the end of that conflict, there were so few enemy planes in the sky that if you shot up one on an airfield that was a 'kill'...

[David Filsell]

If I recall correctly early in the air war an aircraft coming down apparently out of control was counted.

[mancpal]

Only asking because on this very day in 1918 my great uncles Bristol fighter was "shot up" by a plane from Jasta 11 squadron. I've no confirmation that it was Lothar Von Richthofen behind it but he did claim 2 Bristols that day and the timing of 1 of them is a reasonably close match (about 1 hr). He survived though I don't know whether he made a forced landing or reached base, hence would it have registered as a claim if he limped home ? Unfortunately he got shot through the knee a month later.

Simon

[Jasta72s]

Hi

I'm just wondering how the figures for air kills were compiled. Was a kill the witnessed destruction of an enemy craft or could it also be when a damaged plane (or pilot) made a forced landing. Also would a plane that was forced out of battle but made it back to base be included.

Simon

Only asking because on this very day in 1918 my great uncles Bristol fighter was "shot up" by a plane from Jasta 11 squadron. I've no confirmation that it was Lothar Von Richthofen behind it but he did claim 2 Bristols that day and the timing of 1 of them is a reasonably close match (about 1 hr). He survived though I don't know whether he made a forced landing or reached base, hence would it have registered as a claim if he limped home ? Unfortunately he got shot through the knee a month later.

Simon

So, you are asking for the German rules here?!

A witnessed destruction in general or a forced landing on the German side would establish an "Abschuss" or "Luftsieg" for German pilots because the enemy aircraft is lost then.

Sometimes German pilot got a confirmation for an enemy airplane "jenseits zur Landung gezwungen" = forced to land on the other [british/French] side of the lines. However this type of success was not counted as "Abschuss" and did not increase the score of the German pilot in question because there was no proof that the airplane was written off and lost for the enemy.

Therefore your great uncles "shot up" Bristol should not result in any German "Abschuss" claim. However, enough errors occured.

[mancpal]

Jastas 72,

Thanks for your explanation. I'm afraid I know very little about the war in the air and hadn't realised there were different rules depending on nation. I now understand a little more but would be interested to know what the British rules were if yourself or another member could let me know.

Thanks

Simon

[Jasta72s]

You are welcome, Simon,

but I leave it to the British researchers to explain the diversity of their air victories and also the habbit of attributing unwittnessed victories to some pilots.

[Adrian Roberts]

Simon

Victories, or Claims, attributed to British pilots, were described either as "Destroyed" or "Out of Control".

To be claimed as destroyed, an enemy had to be either definitely seen to crash, or to be seen going down in flames or breaking up. The problem was that if an enemy went down without obvious terminal damage, it was difficult to tell it if it crashed: if you are several thousand feet up your enemy will be invisible near the ground, and as the British were more likely to fight over enemy lines than the Germans, going down after him to watch would put you in danger from ground fire. In the middle of a dog-fight you certainly couldn't be watching a victim for more than a few seconds as his mates would be on your tail. Therefore, it was allowable to claim a victory if the enemy was seen going down in a spin, or tumbling, or a high-speed dive. This was described as an "Out of Control" [OOC] claim, roughly equivalent to a "Probable" in WW2. This has led to much of the debate about the claims of some pilots, especially where later research could not match a claim to the German records of losses. Many OOC claims were made in good faith and were perfectly within the rules, but there was certainly room for optimism, if not actual fibbing.

Until mid-1916, there were even more nebulous categories, such as Forced to Land, or Driven Down, when the enemy was not destroyed but which were seen as moral victories as the enemy's mission was interrupted. These were disallowed later in the war, but in the early days with primitive equipment, any victory was hard to come by.

but I leave it to the British researchers to explain the diversity of their air victories and also the habbit of attributing unwittnessed victories to some pilots

All victory claims including OOC were supposed to be witnessed by another officer, either an airman in another aircraft or a ground observer, usually an anti-aircraft battery commander. Occasionally even this rule was bypassed. I imagine Jasta 72 is referring to the case of Billy Bishop, whose score has been calculated as 72 by himself and his supporters, and zero or close to zero by his detractors. Whole books continue to be written about this and there is an active thread on this forum about it which I don't have the expertise to contribute.

I am sure Jasta 72 will also point out that if several British pilots shot down one enemy, they were all allowed to add this to their list of claims as one victory, which the Germans were not. In WW2, even the British would count this as a half, or a third or whatever, of a victory. Similarly if a two-seater crew had a claim approved, both the pilot and the observer/gunner were allowed to add one victory to their tally (I don't know what happened in the case of Handley Page crews?)

Adrian

[mancpal]

Adrian

Thanks for the info. It is far more tricky than I'd thought and I can now see why figures can vary.

Simon