War Diaries, Ireland during & after WW1?

[clive_hughes]

Most of the WW1 unit war diaries I see are concerned with the conflict in Europe and elsewhere overseas, and tend to cease in 1919.

Having been quizzed about Ireland today, can anyone tell me whether War Diaries exist for the units engaged in Ireland during WW1 (1916) and the immediately succeeding Troubles; and if so, in which NA category might they be located please?

Many thanks,

Clive

[tullybrone]

Clive,

I'm no expert but from other posts on the forum I recollect that as Ireland was a home posting no War Diaries were required - even during the Easter Rising or subsequent unrest.

I appreciate you may want quoted sources so hopefully an expert will be along shortly.

You may get a better response from the Ireland sub forum.

Regards

Steve

[jdoyle]

no war diaries as such that I'm aware of. Have a link to a Sherwood Foresters book/diary

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/sherwood-foresters-diary.html

The Helga had a log book and I think this is in the National Archives but not 100% on that.

Johnny

[Stephen Nulty]

Morning Clive

My thinking, which of course may be wildly inaccurate, is that Ireland (at that time part of the United Kingdon of Great Britain and Ireland), was not a Theatre of War and so diaries were not appropriate.

[Peter Mc]

I think the closest you will get to any form of diary is the "Record of the Rebellion in Ireland, 1920-1921" (National Archives). Major parts of this have been transcribed into books ('Fighting for Dublin', William Sheehan, 2007; and 'Hearts and Mines', William Sheehan, 2009). In these you will find detailed accounts both of the Dublin District campaign and the official record of the 5th Division in Ireland.

[Guest]

Lots of units kept war diaries while in the UK. Many of the 7th and 8th Div units kept records from the declaration while sailing back from South Africa, Aden and the concentration in England before going overseas. The 1/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry kept a war dairy covering every day in the UK for the nine months before going overseas.

I have not looked for the Special Reserve battalion war diaries, but given their war roles of key point defence in the UK I would be very surprised if they did not keep diaries. There were 101 Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions dotted around the UK, including Ireland.

While I have not looked for a war dairy for a unit based in Ireland, I would not be surprised if units there maintained them. It is possible if they were involved in the Easter Rising that the diaries have a higher security classification and have been locked up for longer than the 50 year rule introduced in 1967. Some sensitive material was subject to 100 year lockup rule which might explain why they can not be found. I can't imagine the British Govt wanting to release this kind of material in the late 1960s. My speculation. MG

[BrendanLee]

The link below lists what Units I was able to find that were involved in the Rising. I have looked through various diaries including Sherwood Foresters and South Staffs but found no mention of the Rising.

http://www.irishmedals.org/british-strength.html

[David_Underdown]

my understanding is as others have said, home units did not keep diaries under the Field Service Regulations in force at the time. You do find exceptions, 2/4th London Field Ambulance war diary begins when they left London in early in 1915, but then stops after a few months after they've been told it is not required, and only starts again when they go to France. 7th and 8th divisions were presumably considered mobilised at the start of the war, and were not posted as home service unit, so there was a slight anomaly there.

Some sensitive material was extracted, but so far as I know all that is in WO 153, http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14361, which is now open (I think some this relates to courts martial etc or intelligence reports)

There is a small subseries within WO 95 called Home Forces http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C78436 - but it's not easy to work out exactly what this covers. Some seems to be command level diaries (ie Western Command, Northern Command etc).

[clive_hughes]

Folks,

Thank you very much for your collective wisdom. I feel better informed now!

Clive

[Guest]

my understanding is as others have said, home units did not keep diaries under the Field Service Regulations in force at the time. You do find exceptions, 2/4th London Field Ambulance war diary begins when they left London in early in 1915, but then stops after a few months after they've been told it is not required, and only starts again when they go to France. 7th and 8th divisions were presumably considered mobilised at the start of the war, and were not posted as home service unit, so there was a slight anomaly there.

Some sensitive material was extracted, but so far as I know all that is in WO 153, http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14361, which is now open (I think some this relates to courts martial etc or intelligence reports)

There is a small subseries within WO 95 called Home Forces http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C78436 - but it's not easy to work out exactly what this covers. Some seems to be command level diaries (ie Western Command, Northern Command etc).

The 2/5th and 2/7th Bns Sherwood Foresters (TF) both kept very detailed diaries despite being Home Service units. They were both sent to Dublin immediately before the Easter Rising and both sets of diaries stop abruptly in March 1916. More than a coincidence I think. MG

[mikebriggs]

Clive

the following link will hopefully take you a copy of the 2/6th Battalion Sherwood Foresters History - who were engaged in the Easter Rising

https://derbyshireterritorials.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/2-6th-battalion-history.pdf

cheersMike

[David Filsell]

LST

Without being in any way critical, your comment reminded me of that made by F E Smith to a judge who said after Smith had presented evidence that he was no wiser.

F E apparently replied that he understood, but that the judge was at least now "better informed".

Regards

David

[spof]

The 2/5th and 2/7th Bns Sherwood Foresters (TF) both kept very detailed diaries despite being Home Service units. They were both sent to Dublin immediately before the Easter Rising and both sets of diaries stop abruptly in March 1916. More than a coincidence I think. MG

Martin

The 2nd line Warwicks TF Bns also kept detailed diaries while at home.

My understanding is that diaries were menat to be kept while the unit was "on active service". In theory that would mean the Bns in 7 & 8 Divs etc returning from stations abraod after mobilisation would be classed as being on active service. Likewise, thje TF Bns until 1916 were home service only but the mobilisation meant they too were on active service.

The abesence of diaries in TNA is probably more down to the fact that what TNA holds came from the Military History Branch and were used for compiling the Official Histories. I can't explain your example ofthe Sherwoods but it is possible that the home service parts of many TF Bns simply weren't supplied or were not kept by the compliers. Regimental Museums may have more complette versions.

Glen

[Guest]

Martin

My understanding is that diaries were meant to be kept while the unit was "on active service". I

Glen

Hi Glen, - I don't think Active Service is defined as Overseas Active Service. Regardless, some COs definitely considered themselves to be on active service despite being in the UK.

Trawling TNA website indicates there are dozens of units that served in the UK and kept diaries. The interpretation of 'Active Service' was I think subjective. For many 'mobiliztion' meant active service. Certainly for units on the east coast of the UK in 1914 with zeppelin raids they definitely considered themselves to be on active service. The civilians who were shelled at Hartlepool on 16th Dec 1914 might be forgiven for thinking they were on 'active service' too. 86 dead and 424 wounded. Seven soldiers killed and 14 wounded. The coastal batteries certainly would have considered themselves on Active Service. What else could it be?

There is a precedent that highlights the risk of 'active service' on the UK mainland: The Pembrokeshire Yeomanry carried the battle honour 'Fishguard' from 1797 - the only battle honour for action on the mainland UK. It was not awarded until 1853 when Britain feared a French invasion and Palmerston was spending a significant part of GDP on rings of fortresses to protect key ports. They were later known as Palmerston's Follies as advances in artillery technology made them obsolete within a few years. The point is that fear of invasion runs through British history and resurged in 1914 . The TF diaries certainly give the impression that they thought the chances of invasion were high in 1914. So did the Govt as it held a number of Regular Divisions back.

I have studied the 2nd Mounted Div diaries in detail and all their published histories (12 Yeomanry Regiments). There is no doubt that they thought they were on active service while stationed on the Norfolk coast in 1914-15, as did their second lines when they took over as the first lines went overseas. As mentioned before the Derbyshire Yeomanry is a classic example of the prevailing attitudes. It has a decent published history with a chapter on service in the UK.

I vaguely recall seeing some men recorded as KIA on UK soil. I may be wrong. MG

[spof]

Martin

I agree with what you say. There was definitely a feel from the TF men/units that home service was active service especally men who had signed the ISO but were too late to make the 1st line Bns. I have read a diary of a man from the Wawricks in IWM in that situation who felt the same at doing Cyclist Bn coast watching.

Yet another examplee of KRs, ACIs, AOs etc meeting real life?

Glen

[clive_hughes]

David,

No problem - I do feel both a bit wiser and better informed for the comments, which will help me in this situation. So: aside from the intriguing "Record of the Rebellion in Ireland" (?NA reference, please) it seems that the latter phase of the British military engagement in Ireland didn't result in unit diaries of the sort we are accustomed to from Theatres of War?

I had wondered whether any such might exist but still be under a 100-year closure; and it seems not. Personal diaries and regimental histories might be the way forward, as suggested.

Cheers

Clive

[jdoyle]

The 2/5th and 2/7th Bns Sherwood Foresters (TF) both kept very detailed diaries despite being Home Service units. They were both sent to Dublin immediately before the Easter Rising and both sets of diaries stop abruptly in March 1916. More than a coincidence I think. MG

did they not arrived on the 26th April, 2 days after the start of the Rising?

[Guest]

did they not arrived on the 26th April, 2 days after the start of the Rising?

Quite possibly. My only reference material states they went in April. The British sent thousands of troops to Dublin. I am not exactly sure the date that the Sherwoods arrived in Ireland but they were certainly involved in the Rising as they had a number of men killed and many more wounded; Eight killed on 26th and three killed on 27th all buried in Grangegorman Military Cemetery in Dublin. The Rising lasted a few days - ending on 29th if memory serves.

My point is that their diaries for this period are not available yet we know these units kept diaries before and after their time in Ireland. To me it seems highly unlikely that units which maintained detailed diaries through 1914-1915 and early 1916 suddenly and multilaterally decided to stop their diaries only to suddenly start them again months later. It seems fairly likely that these diaries were taken away and locked up. MG

Edit I note the 6th Bn History shows they arrived after the start of the Rising but were heavily involved on arrival. The 6th Bn provided firing squads for the subsequent executions. It is this kind of detail that might in later years become politically highly sensitive. In the late 1960s when the troubles were (re)starting the unit war diaries' lock-up period was being reduced to 50 years. I suspect but cannot prove that these diaries remain locked up somewhere. i.e.possibly not in TNA. MG

[jdoyle]

thanks for clarifying Martin.

The Sherwoods arrived in Kingstown on the Wednesday morning, 2 days after the start of the Rising.

My data re Sherwood casualty numbers is on the following page

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/easter-rising-sherwood-foresters.html

I'm heading over to Dublin to the launch of another Easter Rising book later this month in the School House Hotel by Mount St Bridge near where the IAVTC and Sherwoods encountered the rebels.

http://www.collinspress.ie/when-the-clock-struck-in-1916.html