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Remembered Today:

Photographs of Stavros and the Balkans


annieb22

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Annie, flying boats were aircraft that had a single boat shaped hull. They differed from seaplanes in that the latter were machines equipped with separate floats - usually in the case of most British examples two main floats and I small one under the tail. Therefore they were also sometimes referred to as floatplanes. Seaplanes were basically aircraft that had floats instead of wheels. Flying boats operated from the water, the same as seaplanes. With a crew of two, these FBAs were used mainly in the anti submarine role and as such would have carried bombs - they were also equipped with a single machine gun for defensive purposes.

Sorry but I can't help you with the 'additional for ..' term although I'm certain someone on the forum will know.

Adrian, of course as you point out these FBAs were also used by the French, but I think these were the Type 'C'. The two machines in Annie's photo have water cooled in-line engines whereas I believe the Type 'C' had rotary engines. I know that the CAM (Centre d'Aviation Maritime) Salonoque operated flying boats from Salonika but I think these were Donnet-Denhault machines. It would help if the ones in the photo had some obvious markings, wouldn't it?

Edited by pete-c
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"Additional for ..." means that he was appointed to HMS PRESIDENT II not as a member of that 'ship's' company but for duty elsewhere, while 'borne on the books' of PRESIDENT for pay and administrative purposes..

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Thanks guys, for all the info about flying boats and 'additional for...'.

So when Cyril was on Ark Royal and additional for Eastern Mediterranean and then additional for No 2 Wing and we know he stayed a week, does this imply he had a job to do on the Ark Royal rather than simply travelling? I'm wondering whether Cyril could have assisted in piecing the survey together that Peter mentioned previously in the intelligence room or was this work also done before the end of July? I don't suppose any records survive about this survey. I do know that on his RNAS record he was commended at the end of 1917 for being 'thorough in all intelligence office work and exceptionally good at photography of all kinds'.

I've got a few errands to do today but will try and post some more photos later on.

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According to the official history the survey had been completed by the beginning of July - in a previous post I think I may have stated incorrectly the end of July. Ark Royal, being the Depot Ship was the centre of aviation activities so Cyril was probably given tasks suitable to his experience. Bearing in mind his knowledge of all things photographic he may well have been kept busy in the darkroom, repairing cameras, or as you say helping with photographic interpretation. The lack of experienced observers would have made him a very useful chap to have around but as you have probably found for yourself Annie he doesn't feature in Ark Royals log, except for his arrival and departure.

I believe it wasn't unusual for officers between posts to be left 'kicking their heels' whilst the admin caught up with them. If this applied to Cyril I do hope he didn't run up too large a mess bill!

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any references to this survey in the records - most frustrating. There is one available record of another aerial reconnaissance carried out by seaplanes from Ark Royal earlier in 1916 in the Salonika area but this carries no details of aircrew or types of aircraft.

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This is the panorama of the Enemy Front Line Positions on the Lower Struma. The photo strip isn't in the album but the pictures are glued onto paper which won't roll out flat. Hence, it's difficult to scan but I've managed to scan it with my FlipPal scanner and stitch the images together as best I can.

Firstly, here's what the whole thing actually looks like photographed. I'll post again with the scan itself.

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Does the above say...

Cyril's signature

OSL R.N. (looks like OSR but I presume it's OSL for his rank)

10" lens

From battle O.P.

  1. I'm interested in what the information about the 10" lens tells us - is it that it offers a sense of scale as well as delivering a detailed image?
  2. What is O.P.? Does it mean outpost? What exactly was battle O.P. and what form would it have taken? A bunker, hole in the ground, cave?
  3. If anybody could show me on a map the location where this might have been taken, that would be really useful as I've looked at maps on Google; Road, Satellite and Streetview but I haven't been able to work this out exactly.
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I believe it wasn't unusual for officers between posts to be left 'kicking their heels' whilst the admin caught up with them. If this applied to Cyril I do hope he didn't run up too large a mess bill!

Ha, ha. His bill while he travelled on the Isonzo came to 4 shillings.

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Here's the stitched scan as best as I could manage at a low resolution.

post-90569-0-85733200-1426174451_thumb.j

And here is a portion of the scan at 600dpi.

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We have the advantage of being able to blow photographs up by scanning them but I can well understand why Cyril would have initially failed an eye test when he first applied for a commission. The Senior Ophthalmic Surgeon at King's College Hospital recommended he rest his eyes for three or four weeks after using them for a considerable amount of close work and then be re-examined.

I have no idea what these enemy front line positions would look like. I have to admit that I can't see what it is they can see in the photos.

What's the village on the left called?

Edit: I think there's a limit on the width of the photos here so apologies if the panorama is a bit too small.

Edited by annieb22
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Annie, Fantastic!!

Cyril certainly knew what he was doing didn't he. OP would be Observation Post - usually an area of high ground, as most certainly in this case. 10 inch is presumably referring to the focal length of the lens, and I would guess that the camera would be of the glass plate type. I don't think we have ever improved on the quality of image that can be obtained with this type of camera.

I think I can help with a map. Try: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

I think Cajagzi (usually referred to as Chai Aghazi in Allied military correspondence) could be somewhere to the extreme right, with the Tahinos See at top left. What do you think?

Adrian (apwright) would probably be a good person to give you reliable information regarding the exact location of the town detailed. It might be worth dropping him a PM.

Edited by pete-c
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Peter, I think you have got it. Looking on modern day maps, the shape of the water has changed somewhat.

We've got 5 pages of loose pages, a set of three pages and a set of two.

One is dated 11th September 1917 and called: List of Enemy Battery Positions on NEOHORI SECTOR, Reference: - CAJAGZI Map 1/20,000.

The other set is dated 30th September 1917 and called: List of ENEMY GUN POSITIONS, ARCS? and DATES OF ACTIVITY.

The second set is dated the day after the image was taken. Neither of the papers is in Cyril's handwriting but certainly they were concentrating on the area at the time. I wonder what exactly was going on. I understand the River Struma was the front line. Is that the Struma winding through the photograph? Cyril would have been on the west of the river, I presume.

Cyril's profession before entering the RNAS was in photography and cinematography - he was the editor of the Eclair Journal. I imagine this is why he seems to have been so proficient at it.

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I cannot help here as this is way outside my field (whatever/where-ever that is :closedeyes: )

But I must tell you how much I am enjoying this thread.

Michael

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Annie,

I have a copy of the Salonika Campaign Societies trench map CD. The view in the panorama post #32 is on the Neohori 1:20000 map. The village with the Church is almost certainly Kato Krusoves, the lake in the distance is Lake Tahinos (subsequently drained so no longer there), if you look on the promontory above and to the right of the bridge you can see what look like some buildings, this is probably the village of Neohori, just below the ruins of Amphopolis. Adrian may be able to tell you if these villages are there today and what their modern names are.

If you want to send me a PM with your email address (don't post it here) I can send you a section of the map. I think it is possible to work out where the photograph was taken from.

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The Navy List for December 1918 includes RAF Officers involved with naval flying.

Here is the entry for Stavros including Lieut. RAF, C. N. Ellen.

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Annie, are you aware of Cyril flying with NH Starbuck during his time at Stavros? If not I may have some more info for you. The post from ARABIS has just jogged my memory.

Peter.

Edited by pete-c
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Thank you once again for all your replies. I agree Michael, this is so absorbing.

Mark, I will PM you my email address. I'd love to see the map. I've googled Neohori and Ruins of Amphipolis - really interesting.

Thank you for the list ARABIS. Some of these names are familiar to me as I've read about them in Captain Marlowe's diary published in the CCI back in the 90's. We also have a couple of menus dated April 1918 with many of their signatures on.

Peter, I know Starbuck's name because of the diary and menu but more information about this would be brilliant.

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From the logbook and diary of Norman Henry Starbuck at Stavros:

12/9/1917. Recce; [reconnaissance] Sopwith Strutter N5618; 6,000ft; front line; 45min; With OSL Ellan [sic] escorted by Smith in Pup [sopwith Pup].

27/9/1917. Sopwith Strutter N5204; 7,000ft; front line; 35min; With OSL Ellen, engine failed, glided in from 6,000ft.

29/9/1917. Pup N6432; 5,000ft; Stavros area; 25min; Escort Nicholls and Ellen in Fighter 5618 [N5618 Sopwith Strutter].

2/11/1917. Strutter Fighter [sopwith Strutter] N5204; 6,000ft; Monuki and return Stavros; 50min; with OSL Ellen.

10/11/1917. HF [Henri Farman aeroplane] N3020; 1,000ft; Gulf of Raphani; 1hr 45min; with OSL Ellen; submarine and mine patrol.

11/11/1917. HF N3020; 1,000ft; Stavros-Mt Atho [Athos?] 2hrs 25min; with OSL Ellen; patrol for reported enemy submarine.

26/11/1917. Camel [sopwith Camel] 4,00ft; Stavros-Thasos; 50min; Escort Susson & Ellen on SF [survey flight?].

26/11/1917. Camel; 4,000ft; Thasos-Stavros; 50min; Return and escort Susson & Ellen.

8/12/1917. Camel N6353; 1,000ft; Gulf of Raphoui [Raphani ? see above] 40min; Escort Mac [KG Macdonald ? see ARABIS post] & Ellen in HF on mine patrol.

These details from Cross and Cockade International Vol 42/4 2011.

There are no further mentions of Cyril but the second of these two entries made me chuckle:

14/11/1917. Pup N6433; 5,000ft; Stavros - Kucos; 25min; Wait to chase HA [hostile aircraft].

14/11/1917. Pup N6433; 3,000ft; Kucos - Stavros; 15min; Home for tea.

How very British!

Edited by pete-c
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Hi chaps. I'm not getting much work done - this is far too interesting (big smilie).

Thanks for the map, Mark. When you mentioned Kato Krusoves, I got Googling and came across another map at the following link: http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo:4092

I have a strong feeling that this map was the actual one the guys were using back in the day. The reasons being: 1) the sectors match my two documents that I mentioned above - 2) did you notice the faded blue dot in sector 47 H? I think there's a strong possibility that this is the spot where Cyril's potograph was taken from.

I'm interested in how they would have reached the observation post. Presumably they wouldn't have wanted to land too close by in order not to draw attention to the OP. Also, I imagine they would need a reasonable amount of flat surface to land on. Therefore, would a good amount of walking or mule riding be required?

Thanks Peter for the details from N H Starbuck's log and diary. Marlowe's diary doesn't cover this period as he didn't arrive at Stavros until November so this is the closest I've come to finding out Cyril's movements around the period the photo was taken. In fact, I see he's mentioned on the very day the picture was taken, flying with Nicholls (not a name I've encountered before) and escorting Starbuck.

Can I ask, when aircraft escorted other aircraft would each log book consider the other plane to be the escort? Or was escorting a particular task in itself? I mean, would Nicholl's or Cyril's log book have said that Starbuck was escorting them?

I note that he flew for 25 minutes in the Stavros area on that day. This would not be the trip to the Lower Struma, I presume. Therefore, should I suppose he took another trip that day with either Nicholls or another pilot over to the Struma River? Would I expect to see two flights mentioned ie. flying to the OP and landing and then returning home?

I'm pleased to see how many different aeroplane types Cyril flew in as I only had him in Marlowe's DH4s until now.

I'm going to digest the log details and am bound to have further questions. In the meantime, the next post will show part of the two documents about Enemy Gun/Battery Positions I mentioned earlier. (Edit: they appended themselves to this post). Actually, what's the difference between a gun and a battery?


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Top of page 1 of second document

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Bottom of page 2 of second document.

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Edited by annieb22
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In response to Gardenerbill's request in the Uniforms sub-section of the Forum.

Naval officers when posted on land with the army wore versions of the khaki army uniform with naval rank & insignia.

Post #4. The man sitting on the right is wearing an RNAS officer's cap badge of an eagle surrounded by a wreath with crown above. This indicates an officer who has entered the RNAS directly from civilian life. RN officers attached to the RNAS would wear the anchor surrounded by a wreath with crown above.

Post #15. RN cap badges.

Post#16. 1st photo, RNAS cap badge.

4th photo, left, Lieutenant RN., right RNAS cap badge & RNAS eagle on left breast.

5th photo, Lieutenant RN.

Post#17. RNAS cap badge.

Post#21. Middle photo, RNAS cap badge.

When the RAF was formed in 1918, personnel continued to wear the uniforms & insignia of their original unit.

Another possible way of identifying the people in the photos is to put the names on the list I posted [Post#38] through the Royal Aero Club Aviators Certificates 1910-50 on Ancestry. I understand that these include photos, so it might be possible to compare the pilots against the photos from the album.

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Glad you enjoyed these details Annie. It was seeing Starbuck's name that jogged my memory about the feature on him in CCI.

Regarding the OP position, this area would - presumably - be under Allied control, therefore Cyril and party would most probably have made there way up on foot or, as you surmise, with the aid of mules. There would therefore be no need to do a quick 'in and out' in an aircraft. The fact that he was flying on that particular day may mean that it was someone else that actually took these photos. The fact that he ended up with these photos may be due to him being responsible for the development of the negatives. After all I suppose there would have been copies made to distribute to various interested parties.

Escorting was certainly a very important duty. The escorting aircraft would usually have been a single seat 'fighter' type. In the first entry we have Starbuck and Ellen in a 2 seat Sopwith Strutter, an aircraft type that was used in many roles but in the Macedonian campaign it was mainly used for reconnaissance. Simply put, their escorting aircraft, a Sopwith Pup, was a scaled down version of the Strutter, and its task would be to deal with any enemy aircraft that should come snooping around whilst the Strutter's crew could get on with their job of reconnaissance and photography.

Starbuck does in one entry refer to Strutter N5204 as a 'fighter'. As mentioned above this aircraft type could be regarded as one of the first muli-role aircraft. I would think it is almost certain that the logbooks of the crew of either aircraft would detail the other machines because they would be operating as a 'pair' to fulfil a certain task.

A 'gun' would be a single weapon whilst a 'battery' is a group of guns in a single position. The 'How's' in Battery N1, refer to four 4.2" 'Howitzers'.

This research stuff beats working doesn't it!

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Arabis,

Thank you for the information on the uniforms, would the men in tropical kit be some of the ground crew?

Annie,

I haven't seen that McMaster University trench map resource before thank you for putting up the link.

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Arabis,

Thank you for the information on the uniforms, would the men in tropical kit be some of the ground crew?

Annie,

I haven't seen that McMaster University trench map resource before thank you for putting up the link.

They look to be officers to me, albeit in very relaxed states of uniform.

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Another possible way of identifying the people in the photos is to put the names on the list I posted [Post#38] through the Royal Aero Club Aviators Certificates 1910-50 on Ancestry. I understand that these include photos, so it might be possible to compare the pilots against the photos from the album.

I looked them up on Ancestry as suggested and found photos for a number of the men. However, it's really difficult to compare these pictures with the ones in Cyril's album. I didn't recognise them - the ones on Ancestry are taken in a studio, are generally in smart uniform, wearing caps, etc. so even if one was to match, I doubt I'd be able to identify him.

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I haven't seen that McMaster University trench map resource before thank you for putting up the link.

I was rather chuffed when I found the map. It's like the missing piece of a puzzle - I had the photograph and the documents and now the map puts it all into context.

My map-reading skills are somewhat lacking. I managed to work out that reference 37 Y2 8.6 would be in the square 37 Y but I'm not sure how to interpret the 2 8.6 part. Is it 2 along the horizontal axis and 8.6 along the vertical or something like that?

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Regarding the OP position, this area would - presumably - be under Allied control, therefore Cyril and party would most probably have made there way up on foot or, as you surmise, with the aid of mules. There would therefore be no need to do a quick 'in and out' in an aircraft. The fact that he was flying on that particular day may mean that it was someone else that actually took these photos. The fact that he ended up with these photos may be due to him being responsible for the development of the negatives. After all I suppose there would have been copies made to distribute to various interested parties.

I take your point about the possibility of someone else taking these photos but hubby tends to think Cyril wouldn't have put his signature to it if he hadn't been it's author.

Thinking of possible scenarios - he could have taken his 25 minute flight with Nicholls early in the morning and gone to the OP later in the day. Or perhaps he took the photos the day before and he developed them on the 29th. It's speculation and I doubt we shall ever know for sure (unless another copy turns up, of course - now wouldn't that be interesting.)

What would be considered as low flying? I see that some of his flights were at 1000ft. That seems quite low to me.

Could someone clarify for me what patrols were. Cyril is later involved in spotting according to Marlowe's log book entries. I understand what spotting is and I presume reconnaissance is when they took photographs or perhaps notes about guns, etc. But submarine and mine patrols and 'dawn patrols' as Marlowe puts them, how does this differ to recces?

I haven't been able to find any information about the Gulf of Raphini or Monuki. Any ideas?

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Back to the photos. This is probably too vague to identify but seems to look like the landscape in the Balkans.

post-90569-0-28412900-1426282789_thumb.j

I previously posted this photo on a different thread and we deduced this was probably Monitor 32. What I didn't ascertain is where it's moored.

post-90569-0-87369300-1426282793_thumb.j

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