Bandsman(?) uniform ID - opinions please!

[headgardener]

Here's an odd uniform for you to consider. I'm not sure what to make of it.

The photo is dated 29th August 1918. I have no information on the subject beyond the fact that his name is 'Jack'. He's wearing a dark uniform with black 'rifle' battalion buttons, a white belt and cross-strap, and a side cap (badge not visible). He's got sergeant's chevrons on his R arm. He's wearing bandsman's wings. There's a badge above his chevrons which is very difficult to make out (presumably a bandsman's or bandmaster's trade/appointment badge?). There are also 2 small stars visible on his lower R sleeve. The mitred sleeves of his tunic have a simple 'knot' design (a sort of 3-leafed clover design rather than an Austrian knot). He isn't wearing puttees and appears to be wearing shoes rather than boots.

His uniform has ludicrously large breast-pockets - look at the depth of them....! There appears to be piping along every edge of his tunic. His belt buckle has an 8-pointed star without any additional scroll or crown or other embelishment.

The stars on his lower sleeve make me think of TF efficiency stars, but I'm at a complete loss regarding the rest. And I've always associated TF stars with the pre-war or early-war period, yet this photo is dated August 1918. There's something about the whole ensemble that makes me think of a quasi-military unit of some kind, such as a school OTC or Volunteer unit of some kind. But then there's the black buttons which suggest a rifle unit of some kind. I'm pretty good on badges, yet I don't recognize the belt buckle. There's no photographers name or address.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice....?!

[FROGSMILE]

Here's an odd uniform for you to consider. I'm not sure what to make of it.

The photo is dated 29th August 1918. I have no information on the subject beyond the fact that his name is 'Jack'. He's wearing a dark uniform with black 'rifle' battalion buttons, a white belt and cross-strap, and a side cap (badge not visible). He's got sergeant's chevrons on his R arm. He's wearing bandsman's wings. There's a badge above his chevrons which is very difficult to make out (presumably a bandsman's or bandmaster's trade/appointment badge?). There are also 2 small stars visible on his lower R sleeve. The mitred sleeves of his tunic have a simple 'knot' design (a sort of 3-leafed clover design rather than an Austrian knot). He isn't wearing puttees and appears to be wearing shoes rather than boots.

His uniform has ludicrously large breast-pockets - look at the depth of them....! There appears to be piping along every edge of his tunic. His belt buckle has an 8-pointed star without any additional scroll or crown or other embelishment.

The stars on his lower sleeve make me think of TF efficiency stars, but I'm at a complete loss regarding the rest. And I've always associated TF stars with the pre-war or early-war period, yet this photo is dated August 1918. There's something about the whole ensemble that makes me think of a quasi-military unit of some kind, such as a school OTC or Volunteer unit of some kind. But then there's the black buttons which suggest a rifle unit of some kind. I'm pretty good on badges, yet I don't recognize the belt buckle. There's no photographers name or address.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice....?!

one.jpg

Band Sergeant from either a VB before 1908 or TF after 1908. Unfortunately insignia and buttons not visible. A key feature is the white pouch belt, which was usually only used by scarlet clad units so that seems odd. Rifle green wore black and grey often wore brown. The jacket is just a later pattern frock, albeit of an unusual regimental pattern. YOu are right that it could be connected with an OTC, some of which were VBs in their own right.

[headgardener]

Band Sergeant from either a VB before 1908 or TF after 1908. Unfortunately insignia and buttons not visible. A key feature is the white pouch belt, which was usually only used by scarlet clad units so that seems odd. Rifle green wore black and grey often wore brown. The jacket is just a later pattern frock, albeit of an unusual regimental pattern. YOu are right that it could be connected with an OTC, some of which were VBs in their own right.

Many thanks for this, Frogsmile! Interesting to hear that it's a later pattern frock. There was something about it that looked odd - probably those enormous pockets.

Bearing in mind that the photo is dated 1918 (bottom L corner and reverse, and the back of the card looks right for this date), what do you make of the 2 stars on his R lower arm? They look to me like TF Efficiency(?) stars, but would their appearance on a tunic match this date? I'm not sure that I've seen them on a photo dated after about the early part of 1915. If he was TF then I'm wondering what that would mean regarding his unit.

Does anyone have any idea regarding the badge on his belt buckle? It seems to be two 4-pointed stars - one superimposed on the other, with some sort of raised central device.

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks for this, Frogsmile! Interesting to hear that it's a later pattern frock. There was something about it that looked odd - probably those enormous pockets.

Bearing in mind that the photo is dated 1918 (bottom L corner and reverse, and the back of the card looks right for this date), what do you make of the 2 stars on his R lower arm? They look to me like TF Efficiency(?) stars, but would their appearance on a tunic match this date? I'm not sure that I've seen them on a photo dated after about the early part of 1915. If he was TF then I'm wondering what that would mean regarding his unit.

Does anyone have any idea regarding the badge on his belt buckle? It seems to be two 4-pointed stars - one superimposed on the other, with some sort of raised central device.

The efficiency stars continued in use for many years, eventually being adopted by both CCF and ACF, but I cannot comment on the belt buckle without seeing a close up.

[headgardener]

The efficiency stars continued in use for many years, eventually being adopted by both CCF and ACF, but I cannot comment on the belt buckle without seeing a close up.

Interesting to learn about the Efficiency stars. I remember a thread on GWF regarding the use of GC chevrons by TF men, which led me to assume (always a dangerous thing to do....) that the stars must have been phased out. Many thanks once again for your advice....!

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to learn about the Efficiency stars. I remember a thread on GWF regarding the use of GC chevrons by TF men, which led me to assume (always a dangerous thing to do....) that the stars must have been phased out. Many thanks once again for your advice....!

They were discontinued for TF, I think from late 1916 and I think as part of an effort to unify the troops who by that stage had similar experience. For example many units ceased wearing the T above their shoulder titles. The stars continued in use with cadets as mentioned.

[headgardener]

They were discontinued for TF, I think from late 1916 and I think as part of an effort to unify the troops why by that stage had similar experience. For example many units ceased wearing the T above their shoulder titles. The stars continued in use with cadets as mentioned.

Thanks for clarifying this point. I'll try to do a close-up of the belt-buckle, in case anyone is able to offer an ID on the badge.