2/Lt Alexander Murray, Gordon Highlanders

[rolt968]

I'm researching Alexander Murray, headmaster of Glenrinnes Public School. He enlisted in the Gordon Highlanders (2623, 200552) and went to France on 6 December 1915 (Medal Index Card - ancestry). He was commissioned on 23 April 1917 into 4 (?) Gordon Highlanders and was killed in action on 29 August 1918 (CWGC, SDGW).

According to the Aberdeen University Roll of Honour he enlisted in November 1915. That seems to suggest a very short time before he went to France. I don't think he had any previous military experience. The Roll of Honour makes no mention of U Company Gordon Highlanders or any OTC service (He graduated in 1906 so it would have been quite a while before.).

What do other people think about the time between enlistment and move to France?

RM

Edited 6 July , 2018 by rolt968

[ss002d6252]

#2623 and #200552 would suggest a pre-war territorial with the 4th BN but it depends on what the recruitment rate was at but certainly pre Nov 1915.

EDIT:

Nov 1914 looks possible

#3027 / #200751 enlisted 7/11/1914
#2591 / #200536 enlisted 27/09/1914

#2540 / #200518 enlisted 2/09/1909

Craig

[rolt968]

Thanks Craig. I am wondering if the University Roll of Honour made a mistake.

His wife took over his job. She died in April 1918. There is an account of her service and death which suggests he enlisted earlier. It includes the phrase "three years went by" which suggests that he had joined up by April 1915 at the latest.

I'm curious why he should have been in 4 Gordon Highlanders particularly if he joined prewar. He was already at Glenrinnes when he married at the end of 1910 and before that he was at Mortlach, which would make 7 GH the local battalion.

Oddly although all official documents say that he was commissioned into 4 Gordon Highlanders and serving in 4 Gordon Highlanders when he was killed, he says that he was in 5 Gordon Highlanders in the will made following his wife's death.

RM

[ss002d6252]

Oddly although all official documents say that he was commissioned into 4 Gordon Highlanders and serving in 4 Gordon Highlanders when he was killed, he says that he was in 5 Gordon Highlanders in the will made following his wife's death.

It's possible he was attached to another battalion for a period.

Craig

[johnboy]

Men could be commissioned in one regiment and sent straight to another.

[Glen]

Definitely in the 4th, he was the only officer causality that night (29th/30th)

[rolt968]

Thanks Glen.

RM.

[rolt968]

I have quite a bit of updating to do on this topic:

I now know that  Alexander Murray, headmaster of Glenrinnes School did not go to France on 6 December 1915. There were two 2/Lt Alexander Murrays who served at some time in 4 Gordon Highlanders. The serial numbers given in the first post are for the wrong one! My very slight (but not very convincing excuse) is that ancestry, fmp and the genealogist have only one medal roll index card for a 2/Lt Alexander Murray, Gordon Highlanders. Only the TNA catalogue has two. I have found a BWM and Victory Medal Roll for a 2/Lt A Murray, Gordon Highlanders (no serial numbers or battalions) which is probably him.

 

The correct serial numbers are:

12469/6 and 266649.

They belong to 6 (Banff and Donside) Gordon Highlanders, which would be the "local" battalion for Glenrinnes.

 

There is a slightly bewildering number of battalion changes (some of them only in the name/ number of the battalion).

He attested on 15 December 1915 in Keith (Banffshire), being posted to 6 (Reserve) Gordon Highlanders

He was appointed A/Cpl (paid) on 8 April 1916.

He was promoted A/Cpl (paid) on 29 July 1916?

On 1 September 1916 4(Reserve) Gordon Highlanders absorbed 5, 6 and 7 (Reserve) Battalions at Ripon

In October 1916, he was serving in E Company 4 (Reserve) Gordon Highlanders (still with the 6 Gordons serial number) and was recommended for a commission in 4 Gordons. The commissioning date in the original post is wrong. I think he was commissioned with effect from 28 March 1917.

I will come to when he went to France in another post.

I think he was posted to 1/5 Gordon Highlanders in which he was certainly serving in the spring and early summer of 1918. I have yet to read through the 1/5 Gordons war diary to look for mentions

His wife who had been covering his job died on 2 April 1918. He must have been given leave. (They had four and a half year old daughter.) He made a (new?) will in Elgin on 17 April 1918, indicating that he was serving in 5 Gordon Highlanders.

I am not sure what happened next - presumably he returned to 1/5 Gordons

In June 1918 there was a medical board the document from which I will post as I would be grateful for assistance.

On 8 June 1918, 1/5 Gordons absorbed "surplus personnel" form 8/10 Gordons. Reading the War Diary there seem to have been more officers than were required and a number were sent to the depot.

It seems that when Alexander Murray  returned from illness in the summer of 1918, either 1/5 Gordons had a full complement or there was a greater need in 1/4 Gordons. I have read through the war diary of 1/4 Gordons for June to August 1918 and the only mention is of his death on 29 August 1918.

 

RM

Edit: Corrected date of death - more haste less speed!

Edited 6 July , 2018 by rolt968

[ss002d6252]

36 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I have quite a bit of updating to do on this topic:

I now know that  Alexander Murray, headmaster of Glenrinnes School did not go to France on 6 December 1915. There were two 2/Lt Alexander Murrays who served at some time in 4 Gordon Highlanders. The serial numbers given in the first post are for the wrong one! My very slight (but not very convincing excuse) is that ancestry, fmp and the genealogist have only one medal roll index card for a 2/Lt Alexander Murray, Gordon Highlanders. Only the TNA catalogue has two. I have found a BWM and Victory Medal Roll for a 2/Lt A Murray, Gordon Highlanders (no serial numbers or battalions) which is probably him.

  

The correct serial numbers are:

12469/6 and 266649.

They belong to 6 (Banff and Donside) Gordon Highlanders, which would be the "local" battalion for Glenrinnes.

 

There is slightly bewildering number of battalion changes (some of them only in the name/ number of the battalion).

He attested on 15 December 1915 in Keith (Banffshire), being posted to 6 (Reserve) Gordon Highlanders

He was appointed A/Cpl (paid) on 8 April 1916.

He was promoted A/Cpl (paid) on 29 July 1916?

On 1 September 1916 4(Reserve) Gordon Highlanders absorbed 5, 6 and 7 (Reserve) Battalions at Ripon

In October 1916, he was serving in E Company 4 (Reserve) Gordon Highlanders (still with the 6 Gordons serial number) and was recommended for a commission in 4 Gordons. The commissioning date in the original post is wrong. I think he was commission with effect from 28 March 1917.

I will come to when he went to France in another post.

I think he was posted to 1/5 Gordon Highlanders in which he was certainly serving in the spring and early summer of 1918. I have yet to read through the 1/5 Gordons war diary to look for mentions

His wife who had been covering his job died on 2 April 1918. He must have been given leave. (They had four and a half year old daughter.) He made a (new?) will in Elgin on 17 April 1918, indicating that he was serving in 5 Gordon Highlanders.

I am not sure what happened next - presumably he returned to 1/5 Gordons

In June 1918 there was a medical board the document from which I will post as I would be grateful for assistance.

On 8 June 1918, 1/5 Gordons absorbed "surplus personnel" form 8/10 Gordons. Reading the War Diary there seem to have been more officers than were required and a number were sent to the depot.

It seems that when Alexander Murray  returned from illness in the summer of 1918, either 1/5 Gordons had a full complement or there was a greater need in 1/4 Gordons. I have read through the war diary of 1/4 Gordons for June to August 1918 and the only mention is of his death on 28 August 1918.

 

RM

 

The OR war gratuity of £8 - for a Corporal it would be 16 months service at time of commissioning. If he was commissioned 28 March 17 then this would indicate enlistment in the month from 29 November 1915 (and vice versa).

 

Craig

[rolt968]

A while ago I read through 2/Lt Alexander Murray's file at TNA, Kew. Unfortunately it had been weeded severely and not too logically. Even more unfortunately I did not know that my little camera was on its last legs and the photos are far from clear clear.

I would appreciate it if colleague's could help with some both deciphering and some explanations.

This the top half of the first side of a report of a medical board at Etaples on 24 June 1918. Unfortunately no follow up document survived. I will post the rest of the document in different posts for those who would find it more useful to see the whole thing.

 

1. What was No. 3 P B Depot? (Apologies, I think I or someone else has asked this before).

2. I can't make sense of the War Service figures: 9/12 (years) service abroad suggests he went to France about September 1917. However 2 3/4 years home service won't work. He enlisted on 15 December 1915.

3.Does the date of origin (10 June 1916) refer to the start of the PUO or the post PUO Debility?

4. The place of origin is "In the field" does this mean serving with his battalion or could it mean at the depot in France?

5 Can anyone make out the date in "Admitted to Hospital on ?/6/1918 with PUO"?

Many thanks

RM

Edited 6 July , 2018 by rolt968

[rolt968]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The OR war gratuity of £8 - for a Corporal it would be 16 months service at time of commissioning. If he was commissioned 28 March 17 then this would indicate enlistment in the month from 29 November 1915 (and vice versa).

 

Craig

Thanks Craig. That confirms his date of commissioning.

(Having made mistakes to begin with I am going mare carefully this time.)

I seem to have had the pieces of two jigsaws and forced them together to make one picture.

RM

[RaySearching]

may or may not help

Listed as 4th Gordon Highlanders on Soldiers effects

LINK

 

 

Ray

Edited 6 July , 2018 by RaySearching

[rolt968]

For completeness, this is the bottom half of the first page of the medical board report. I don't think I have any questions:

[rolt968]

13 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

may or may not help

Listed as 4th Gordon on Soldiers effects

LINK

 

 

Ray

Thanks, Ray.

I had got that. If I remember rightly there are two entries in the Effects Register.

RM

[ss002d6252]

19 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Thanks, Ray.

I had got that. If I remember rightly there are two entries in the Effects Register.

RM

There are.

 

Craig

[rolt968]

This is the top half of the other side of the sheet which seems straightforward. He was sent on three weeks sick leave in England.

[rolt968]

This is the bottom half of the second side:

 

Can anyone make out the third and last words in "Yes, Rest, ??? &  ???"?

 

(Unfortunately there are no more medical documents.)

Again thanks.

RM

[Interested]

I read the diagnosis as "debilitated" and the prescription looks like "Rest, Tonics and changes"; however this means nothing to me, and probably isn't too helpful either ! 

[rolt968]

2 minutes ago, Interested said:

I read the diagnosis as "debilitated" and the prescription looks like "Rest, Tonics and changes"; however this means nothing to me, and probably isn't too helpful either ! 

Thanks.

I had got "Rest" and thought the last might be "Change". "Tonic(s)" seems sensible. Rest and tonic would make sense with three weeks sick leave.

RM

[51st Sikhs]

RM,

 

Rather curious to why he didn't get a commission from the start as he was a University graduate and it was rather rare for people of his class background to serve for more a year in the ranks than have been slotted for a OTU unit from the onset unless he didn't want a commission. 

Wondered if you though the same?

Edited 7 July , 2018 by 51st Sikhs

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, 51st Sikhs said:

Craig,

 

Rather curious to why he didn't get a commission from the start as he was a University graduate and it was rather rare for people of his class background to serve for more a year in the ranks than have been slotted for a OTU unit from the onset unless he didn't want a commission. 

Wondered if you though the same?

I had wondered why it took them so long to send him to France commissioned or not.

RM

Edit: I wonder if there was a question about his health. There is nothing in his enlistment documents except bad teeth.

FWR have a transcript from MH106/388 of 2/Lt A Murray 1/5 Gordon Highlanders, originally admitted to 3 CCS with POU on 19 Dec 1917, transferred to 8 Ambulance Train on 24 Dec 1917. Curiously there is no entry for him in the end of month increase/decrease report by 1/5 Gordon Highlanders at the end of December 1917.

Edited 6 July , 2018 by rolt968

[rolt968]

Thank you for all contributions so far.

I have finally decided that none of the figures for service make any sense. The total does not match the sum of home and overseas.

 

I still can't remember what No. 3 P B Depot presumably at Etaples was. I'm sure we've had it before, but I can't find it. Can someone remind me please?

 

RM

[ss002d6252]

Just now, rolt968 said:

Thank you for all contributions so far.

I have finally decided that none of the figures for service make any sense. The total does not match the sum of home and overseas.

 

I still can't remember what No. 3 P B Depot presumably at Etaples was. I'm sure we've had it before, but I can't find it. Can someone remind me please?

 

RM

 

Quote

2. I can't make sense of the War Service figures: 9/12 (years) service abroad suggests he went to France about September 1917. However 2 3/4 years home service won't work. He enlisted on 15 December 1915.

I might be missing something obvious but.

The war gratuity and commission dates fit spot on together.

 

The medical form is from June 18 so the  2 3/4 years (33 months) would fit from Nov 15 to June 18 (32 months) would be right if it was simple rounded to the nearest quarter.

The 9 months service overseas would work in he went overseas after commission or if it was split between his OR and officer service. His OR war gratuity was paid at the overseas rate, even if he hadn't served overseas in the ranks, providing that he served overseas as an office.

Craig

[rolt968]

27 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

I might be missing something obvious but.

The war gratuity and commission dates fit spot on together.

 

The medical form is from June 18 so the  2 3/4 years (33 months) would fit from Nov 15 to June 18 (32 months) would be right if it was simple rounded to the nearest quarter.

The 9 months service overseas would work in he went overseas after commission or if it was split between his OR and officer service. His OR war gratuity was paid at the overseas rate, even if he hadn't served overseas in the ranks, providing that he served overseas as an office.

Craig

Thanks Craig

 

I think you have provided the answer. I think they have the wrong figures in the wrong places. They have 3 years against total service, 2 3/4 against home service and 9/12 against overseas service which doesn't add up. The 2 3/4 should be against total service which  as you say is correct.

 

I am fairly sure he had no overseas service in the ranks. The 9/12 suggest that he arrived in France in September/October 1917. However he was home on compassionate leave in April 1918 when his wife died and if he is the 2/Lt A Murray transferred from 3CCS to 8 Ambulance Train in December 1917, he may have been sent to the UK then. He certainly had broken overseas service so his arrival in France was probably either at the very beginning of September 1917 or earlier.

 

I have still to find a mention of him in any war diary except his death in 1/4 Gordon Highlanders. Unfortunately a crucial stages the 1/5 GH War Diary stops mentioning officers' names in the end of month ins and outs.  What is the most likely in and out page for his arrival in 1/4 Black Watch is missing. Though come to think of it I should look for his arrival in 1/5 GH earlier than I have.

 

RM

[ss002d6252]

39 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Thanks Craig

 

I think you have provided the answer. I think they have the wrong figures in the wrong places. They have 3 years against total service, 2 3/4 against home service and 9/12 against overseas service which doesn't add up. The 2 3/4 should be against total service which  as you say is correct.

 

I am fairly sure he had no overseas service in the ranks. The 9/12 suggest that he arrived in France in September/October 1917. However he was home on compassionate leave in April 1918 when his wife died and if he is the 2/Lt A Murray transferred from 3CCS to 8 Ambulance Train in December 1917, he may have been sent to the UK then. He certainly had broken overseas service so his arrival in France was probably either at the very beginning of September 1917 or earlier.

 

I have still to find a mention of him in any war diary except his death in 1/4 Gordon Highlanders. Unfortunately a crucial stages the 1/5 GH War Diary stops mentioning officers' names in the end of month ins and outs.  What is the most likely in and out page for his arrival in 1/4 Black Watch is missing. Though come to think of it I should look for his arrival in 1/5 GH earlier than I have.

 

RM

Have you tried brigade or the divsional admin diaries for mention of his arrival ?

 

Craig

Edited 9 July , 2018 by ss002d6252