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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Work on Hill 60


JimSmithson

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As stated before...ORGANISED chaos!

regards

Tom

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. I would strongly suggest that people in Great-Britain and the commonwealth start pushing the war graves commission and their goverment(s) for a much stronger British envolvement in this important case! Although the province council means well, there is much more knowledge in Britain/commonwealth when it comes to battlefield preservation and I think it is fair to say after what happened that they can use a little help...

Bert , I am so glad you suggest a strong British involvement and guidance to the Flemish government I believe they just wait for foreign guidance. I had the wrong impression that at least 50% of the fightings, losses and dead were connected to the Germans. I obviously was wrong and infact there were never German units involved.

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Egbert, I fully agree with your point, although I'm not sure sarcasm was the best or friendliest way to make it. It is the case though that the CWGC has some involvement in the Hill 60 site already, and some involvement in the work going on at the moment - and the funding for CWGC comes directly from the British and Commonwealth governments.

Personally I think the VDK should be a partner in this work in some way, but as there are no actual German war graves on the site, it is not within their remit.

- brummell

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Given that the works proceed to conclusion at Hill 60 and the examples of the existing theme parks at Prowse Point, Yorkshire Trench and Bayernwald (Where the ambience has been completely destroyed) is this a pointer to future plans for the two most iconic structures and sites still somehow still remaining in Flanders, the pillboxes and the mine craters. Make no mistake for if the authorities set their hands on these then Flanders will not be worth the effort of visiting at all. Sadly no amount of discussion will have any effect on further developments and the phrase used in the excellent article "Visitor potential" really does sum up the twisted logic underpinning most of these developments. My own credo where unique WW1 sites still exist is sympathetic Renovation not Reconstruction.

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It is possible to protect sites in a much more sensitive manner as happens for example with footpaths in many of our national Parks. The more sensitive approach however tends to require ongoing care rather than one off construction. I suspect that the visitor potential has indeed been the first priority, and while lay-bys or similar coach parking facilities are inevitably disruptive the main parts of historic sites surely deserve better care.

Unfortunately one by-product of the centenary, apart from the rash of new monuments and museums, is the increase in visitor numbers, and it seems likely that a few key locations will now be added to the general "Europe in five days" kind of tour as access to the sites themselves is generally free, and Ypres in particular with the Last Post Ceremony has been placed so firmly on the map of companies operating that kind of tour.

I actually doubt that after 1919 more than a handful of locations will see such substantial visitor numbers.

Keith

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I actually doubt that after 1919 more than a handful of locations will see such substantial visitor numbers.

Keith

1919?? :hypocrite:

Be wary: they thought that after the centenary of the US Civil War and numbers have remained remarkably high - certainly far, far more than pre 1962. One only has to look at Gettysburg to see the matter of the erection of new memorials getting out of hand.

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The centenary of the mine attack and British advance on Hill 60 today.Remembering also Saxon Infanterie Regiment 105 under whom the mines exploded.

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Bert , I am so glad you suggest a strong British involvement and guidance to the Flemish government I believe they just wait for foreign guidance. I had the wrong impression that at least 50% of the fightings, losses and dead were connected to the Germans. I obviously was wrong and infact there were never German units involved.

Hello Egbert,

It was not my intention to minimise the sufferance and losses of the German army on Hill 60. Same goes for the French by the way, who saw action there as well in 1915. It is just that it is generally considered to be a mainly British 'lieu de mémoire'. This being said, I am sure there is quite a bit of knowledge present in Germany when it comes to landscape preservation as well. If any German experts would come forward and express their concerns towards the authorities involved, I am sure this could only have a positive impact on the outcome. Let's try and stay united in our concerns to preserve what is left of the WW1 battlefields.

regards,

Bert

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Bert I know you care for all involved dead and my post was meant to sharpen one's mind that this should be a combined European effort. Bert I think I read somewhere (maybe on the Dutch WW1 forum) that a lot of EU money is involved in the project. So it would be wise by the responsible authorities to involve all involved parties, English, French and German.

I do not know the reason why the project lead did not invite the VdK to contribute to this effort. But for me it would be too logicical to do so. As to the reasons why the CWGC only was invitied in the project analyses-I do not know. The Flemish government should know better.

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The CWGC was involved because they are somehow involved in the care for the area: "The Hill was purchased in 1920 by Lieutenant-Colonel Cawston for 15,000 Belgian Francs. He later sold a half share to a Mr. J J Calder. In 1930 Mr Calder donated the site 'to the nation', and it was taken over by the Imperial War Graves Commission, who as the CWGC still maintain it today." (source: http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/hill60.html )

Who exactly owns the area is unknown to me. I would think the area is officially property of the Belgian state (or the Flemish government?) but to be used by the CWGC (as all of the other Commonwealth cemeteries in Belgium). I don't think any state can own a plot of land in another country. For the cemeteries, Belgium bought the land from the private owners and then gave it to the CWGC to be used "eternally" as a cemetery (and only as long as the land is used as a cemetery). (British cemeteries are thus not British territory! Just as French, German, American, ... cemeteries are not their territory)

Jan

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To be more accurate - the land (at least of the cemeteries and memorials) was originally British/Australian/French etc territory but by inter-governmental agreement, soon after the war, was returned to the 'home' state concerned on the understanding that the sites would remain for their originally allocated purpose so long as the relevant foreign government organisation maintained them; these agreements are periodically reviewed. As much as anything else, this was done to deal with all the innumerable legal problems that arise from land ownership, especially those with public access. So, the sites are not Canadian/British/NZ whatever as Embassies/High Commissions are; yet nothing can be done on them (or directly related to them) without the consent of the maintaining government or its agency (ie the CWGC in this case, usually). It follows, it seems to me, that Hill 60 is the maintenance responsibility of the CWGC (indeed, there is no question about that as this is what has been going on for years); what happens as regards roads and parking etc outside its boundaries is another matter, though doubtless it can express an opinion that would carry some weight.

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I have just Googled this article from the Glasgow Herald of July 28 1927 which gives a bit more on the ownership issue. Obviously a lot of time has passed since then but it suggests that 15,000 square metres was handed over initially

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19270728&id=6qBAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZKUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4906,4010589&hl=en

Neil

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  • 2 weeks later...

Remembering also Saxon Infanterie Regiment 105 under whom the mines exploded.

It's good to see them mentioned by name. A platoon of 2./105 had the grievous misfortune to be holding Hill 60 at the time, and was wiped out. Their published Verlusteliste for this battle lists many as missing - some of whom were certainly never found, having (to put it bluntly) been blown to pieces too small to identify. Hill 60 is their grave, as it is surely the grave of others who perished beneath it during the long period of mining warfare in this sector.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1950884

The platoon commander,19 year old Leutnant Volkmar Zenker from Dresden, was not killed by the mines because he had been reporting at the company commander's dugout. He immediately rushed forward and attacked the advancing British (presumably with his pistol), but was soon overwhelmed by superior numbers and bayonetted. This did at least buy some time for the company commander Leutnant der Reserve Steinmann (a 'borrowed' Prussian officer from the corps Train) to launch a counterattack with his immediate reserve platoon, only to be severely wounded himself.

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Such a shame at the state of Hill 60, I have been lucky enough to visit the area for the last 5 years, and took my son for the first time last year, for the people who have visited the hill for many years previous they have fond memories of an untouched site, for new visitors they are not going to know or see any difference.

Personally I enjoyed walking around Caterpillar crater,the bunkers, and the site as a whole and found it extremely peaceful and attempted to try and gather my thoughts around the site as to what those brave young men went through.

I just think the works that have been carried out, especially the damage done to the site from the tracks of the vehicles have ruined the site and taken some of the character away from the hill, looks like Hill 60 will be off my list to visit this year, and remember how it was.

Kevin

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I'll go back there a week or two from now. Maybe the damage done by the tracks of the vehicles will not be that bad ? After all, the grass and the weeds will grow again ?

Aurel

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Am there several days of the week including yesterday. The damage even after the boardwalks have been removed is still very much in evidence as are recently dug survey diggings and earth moving machine track damage.. Fencing still remains in situ as does survey & measurement marker poles. Hill 60 can never be considered as original and untouched since the Great War ever again........

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Am there several days of the week including yesterday. The damage even after the boardwalks have been removed is still very much in evidence as are recently dug survey diggings and earth moving machine track damage.. Fencing still remains in situ as does survey & measurement marker poles. Hill 60 can never be considered as original and untouched since the Great War ever again........

But this was never the case it was fought over heavily during 1940. It was not original nor untouched since the Great War before these works.

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Indeed and well put MH. I was only just looking at the burial returns concerning the May 1940 RSF burials on the hill and around the catapillar crater. The destroyed QVR memorial, damaged Australian Engineers WW1 bunker and Australian Tunnelers memorial confirm MH's revelations.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My great uncle was killed there February 1915 and his grave is unknown

Could they not be covering over unmarked graves?

Frank Monaghan Private 3428 of the 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers.

Who died age 23 on Monday 22nd February 1915 at La Chapelle Farm, Ypres (Hill 60)

He is commemorated at Hooge Crater Cemetery. Ieper. West-Vlaanderen Belgium on Special Memorial 13 for those who died at La Chapelle Farm.

On 22nd February 1915 after four days of heavy fighting near Verbrandenmolen, Zillebeke, Belgium at La Chapelle Farm, Frank was killed.

He was buried at La Chapelle farm with a wooden cross as a marker.

Out of nearly 50 killed from the 2nd battalion NF during the four days fighting Frank was the only one who got buried at La Chapelle Farm.

All of the rest were lost without trace and are commemorated on the Menin Gate.

Buried alongside him were 11 other crosses

9 from the 1st Lincolnshire's

1 from the 1st Dorsetshire's

1 from the 1st Bedfordshire's.

During the preceding years the little wooden cross cemetery was pounded by shellfire and by the end of the war there was no trace of any graves.

After the war the Commonwealth Graves Commission made a Duhallow (special memorials) at Hooge Crater Cemetery a few kilometres away to those lost graves at La Chapelle farm.

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Very sad state of affairs for one of the iconic sections of battlefield on the Ypres Salient. Glad I got to walk the ground and explore the site in detail several years back before all the construction/destruction began. This is an example of battlefield preservation at its worst.

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Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it has. The road is now completely closed as they are digging up large sections of it, the car park included. There are no signs to indicate when the work will be finished, but my guess is that it will be at least four weeks.

Bob

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Perhaps it will be ready in time for the centinery of the Messines offensive. Or the armistice?

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  • 3 months later...

I was there last weekend and I was very disappointed.

Hill 60 is a building site. Loads of vehicles disrupting the original (post 1918) landscape and all those walk-ways cover up the hill and change the whole feel of the place. I felt, for the first time ever, no way inclined to walk over the site, and I didn't. Builders all over the place. Not a trace of ´special place´ about it. People even cycling through the place.

The Light Division memorial is barely visible due to waist-high weeds in front of it! Couple of workmen drilling holes in the stones in front of the memorial. Haven´t got a clue what they´re planning there.

Caterpillar Crater has changed beyond all discription. Nearly all the trees surrounding, and sitting in, the crater have gone. It looks just like an oversized duck pond in Hyde Park, and not at all impressive any more.

Fortunate enough to walk through Palingbeek Woods for the first time ever. That made up for a lot, I can tell you. Imagine what stories the trees there can tell.. Saw a new book on that area of the Salient, will definitely put that book on my want to buy list!

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