towisuk Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Just wanted to let people know that minister-president Geert Bourgeois, head of the Flemish goverment and minister responsible for scheduled monuments (like hill 60) will be interpelated on the matter in the parlementary commission for monuments and landscapes. As you can see things have allready got through to top level politics in Flanders. I will report on the outcome of the interpelation once the notes of the meeting are published (most likely next week or a week later) on line. Plans for these works came from the province of West Vlaanderen, but everything was approved by the monuments and landscapes administration of the Flemish goverment, who were also responsible for the supervision. In my opinion both authorities share responsibilities. The erosion on the hill is a problem that should be dealt with, but homework should be done over and, most important, other sites such as Vimy and Newfoundland park should be studied to see how the problem is dealt with elsewhere. I also think that the expensive landscape architects who came up with this terrible idea should be releaved of their job and that the authorities should look at the anglo-saxon world, where there is actually some knowledge available when it comes to responible battlefield conservation. .Bert They should have a look to see how Lochnagar Crater has been developed to stop erosion by thousands of visitors, and that work was undertaken by volunteers! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 What I cannot understand (and I have contacted them and am awaiting a reply) is that Hill 60 'belongs' to the CWGC and they are (or should be) responsible for what is going on up there; there is nothing about this work on their web site. Anyhow, I am off up there today and shall have a look see. From what I could find online in ducth, our goverment seems to be owner of Hill 60 (not clear if this is local (Ypres), Flemish or Belgian goverment). CWGC is responsible for the maintenance of the site and the new layout as it was planned has been worked through with and approved by them. The same raised walking path has also been planned around the craters at The Bluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 From what I could find online in ducth, our goverment seems to be owner of Hill 60 (not clear if this is local (Ypres), Flemish or Belgian goverment). CWGC is responsible for the maintenance of the site and the new layout as it was planned has been worked through with and approved by them. The same raised walking path has also been planned around the craters at The Bluff. Actually the Belgian government is the owner - just as it is the owner of the Menin Gate and any of the CWGC cemeteries etc in Belgium. In other words, it could not touch the ground without CWGC approval; ergo the CWGC must have approved what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 I have received a few minutes ago this communication from the CWGC as regards the work on Hill 60: "I agree that the area around the Hill has the appearance of a building site. The Province of West Flanders, together with the support of the City of Ieper, is constructing a coach/ car park and public footpath to provide safe access to Hill 60 and they are working towards re-instating the area as quickly as possible. We support this initiative as we share their concerns about the lack of parking and separation of pedestrians and vehicular traffic along what has become a busy road. In addition, they are undertaking works to provide a network of paths on Hill 60 to prevent future soil erosion caused by the increasing number of visitors. We were consulted and significant changes were made and continue to be made to the works proposed (including a reduction in the proposed path network). The work is being undertaken by a contractor on behalf of the Province and we attend a weekly site meeting to monitor the project; this includes a member of our conservation team. As a result of our input, changes have been made to the programme and method of works to reduce the impact on the landscape. Unfortunately, far more unexploded shells were found than originally anticipated and they had to be removed. Other than to remove such shells and the installation of ground anchors to support a suspended walkway, the contractor is not permitted to excavate on Hill 60. Indeed, where extensive erosion has taken place the original contours are, as far as is possible, to be re-instated (particularly where trees roots are exposed). Once the works are completed, the Commission will review the planting on the site to re-establish the natural landscape of the Hill. As you seem aware, Hill 60 is not included on our website because it is not a CWGC cemetery or memorial. However, I agree that it would be appropriate to maintain a general notice to inform visitors of the works in progress – these notices will be uploaded and maintained until the work is completed." Which seems to say it all. From this I assume that you would be able to wonder off-path should you wish to do so (but, presumably, would be advised against doing this). Unfortunate in many ways though the work on the Hill actually is, like other sites on the old Front Line it is a victim of its own success. Certainly the parking area was insufficient, especially in the light of the increasing level of ordinary traffic. I am pleased to see that they have taken on board the point about information for the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 19 March , 2015 Share Posted 19 March , 2015 And finally, the CWGC is aware of the centenary of the firing of the British mines in April and anticipate that the work will be completed by the 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peterikon Posted 25 March , 2015 Share Posted 25 March , 2015 Good afternoon, I visited Hill 60 yesterday and it is chaos. the car park in front of the memorial to the 15th division is now a dump for Tarmac and unusable, the new coach park is unfinished, so nowhere to park. The work on the foot ways appears to have just stopped, no sign of any work being current. It is more dangerous now as a building site than it was formerly. A footway to the Australian bunker on the reverse of the hill is taped off and the footpath to the catapiller is half done, the edges are concreted in but the centre path is just uneven rubble. I could have cried , to see the hill in this terrible condition in late March makes me worry for the large number of visitors who will arrive early April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 March , 2015 Share Posted 25 March , 2015 Sorry Peterikon to read that you could have cried. I posted some pics 10 days ago (on page 2), trying to show it could have been worse, but I'm afraid it didn't help much. True, Caterpillar works not finished yet, but "soon" (?) they will be, and it won't look bad I hope. (Though I still think the works round the crater itself were not really necessary.) Access to it sure is better than 20 years ago... Car park a dump for tarmac ? True. But in a way "normal" when there are works. And it won't be forever. ... But if I understand you correctly, your worry is when many visitors will arrive a month from now ... Cheer up ! :-) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 30 March , 2015 Share Posted 30 March , 2015 How is the work getting on at Hill 60 now? I am hoping to visit new week with my Brother In Law. He has never been before so it will all be new to him. Is the parking area clear yet, if not, where is a good place to park? Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 30 March , 2015 Share Posted 30 March , 2015 Just wanted to let people know that minister-president Geert Bourgeois, head of the Flemish goverment and minister responsible for scheduled monuments (like hill 60) will be interpelated on the matter in the parlementary commission for monuments and landscapes. As you can see things have allready got through to top level politics in Flanders. I will report on the outcome of the interpelation once the notes of the meeting are published (most likely next week or a week later) on line. .Bert Just wanted to let everyone know that the interpellation is scheduled for tomorrow: http://www.vlaamsparlement.be/Proteus5/showVI.action?id=966092 I will report on the outcome as soon as the notes of the meeting are published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 31 March , 2015 Share Posted 31 March , 2015 Call me cynical, but I wonder if all this shambolic work is someones way at getting back at those who defended the importance of Hill 60 in the war, and objected to the plans for the development opposite.... I can't imagine anyone planning something that badly .....it's seems like deliberately organised chaos from the photo's and comments posted!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 1 April , 2015 Share Posted 1 April , 2015 And Tom absolutely nothing anyone can do about it, best to see these places before they are completely ruined. No mention as far as I am aware of the new theme park at Prowse Point has this escaped the attention of members? See https://www.flickr.com/photos/battlefield_historian/15702269618/in/set-72157649495989845 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 1 April , 2015 Share Posted 1 April , 2015 Hi Norman, there are times when I'm glad I was born when I was.... I've been lucky enough to see a lot of the Western Front before the developers got their hands on it to turn it into Theme parks, "Educational displays" etc to enable them to fill their pockets with euros from the pilgrims. It's a wonder Disney hasn't got in on the act yet (as far as I'm aware), it will in no way represent the blasted ground where hundreds of thousands of men lost their lives in a few years time. Thousands of men of both sides still lying unfound, or when they are.... "disposed of" under the digger buckets of a new "attraction". Progress??? Bah!!...Humbug!!!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 1 April , 2015 Share Posted 1 April , 2015 Hill 60 as I prefer it (As no doubt many others do as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 I was near Prowse Point Cem. a month or so ago, and I don't think it looks like a theme park. Are you serious ? Is / was this the intention ? Anyway, no sign of Walt Disney nearby. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 Just a pic or two (end of Jan. 2015) No further information. Football monument (replacing or similar to the Kaki Chums Cross with the soccer balls some 50 meters more east). Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 Pic 2 - Trenches left of preceding photo. (As this topic is about Hill 60 works, maybe better not to continue? Sorry I hijacked it myself .) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 Thanks for the photo Aurel, I like the pretend trenches if that is what they are supposed to be. And yes I am serious about yet another theme park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 April , 2015 Share Posted 3 April , 2015 As to the trenches ... I remember when I was there that a man next to me (don't know who he was) told me that the location of the trench(es) is not accurate, but that for some reason "they would not listen" to him ... I wonder how the place looks now. Some time this month I'll be nearby and will go and have a look. Theme park or not ? No idea. It's just that I associate theme parks with Disney World Orlando and Disneyland LA. Including rollercoasters. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 13 April , 2015 Share Posted 13 April , 2015 A few pictures of the Hill 60 memorial site as it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Rant Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Somelinks Distressed visitor http://geometryofsleep.com/2015/03/02/the-loss-of-hill-60/ Local TV http://www.focus-wtv.be/nieuws/werken-hill-60-lopen-vertraging-op Flemish parliament debate the débâcle https://www.vlaamsparlement.be/commissies/commissievergaderingen/970236/verslag/971215 https://mobile.twitter.com/thegr8war/status/563323167016779776 The question being asked is, how were these contractors allowed onto the Hill with no Instriction or supervision? Suffice to say, anniversary of recapture of Hill 60 next week, no car parks completed. Hill still a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fattyowls Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Mid morning last Sunday, it was fairly busy. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 I'll post a translation of the explanation minister Bourgeois gave in Flemish parlement if I have the time. It does explain things a bit better. But the most important things that were said are: - The present track will be removed as it was considered a 'test stretch' (???). But some kind of track WILL be placed on the hill in the future, it is just not clear yet what form this will take and what the extend will be. - Owner of hill 60 is the Belgian goverment, province council of West-Vlaanderen has 'recht van opstal' (this is a juridical term - it more or less means that they have legal rights to make alterations to the hill or build something like a track after this has been approved by monuments and landscapes agency of the Flemish goverments). I have always believed that Hill 60 had been given in the care of the war graves commission in perpetua like the cemeteries... But clearly this is not the case - although the war graves commission seems to be involved in the works. - The works are planned to prevent further erosion and allow wheelchair access to the site. - The undertaker that made the damage on the hill will be held repsonsible and has to bring up the costs of repairing the site in its original condition. The works were supervised by the monuments and landscapes agency, but this was not a permanent supervision (this is never the case - the agency is critically understaffed). The good thing is that everything seems to be back to planning phase. I would strongly suggest that people in Great-Britain and the commonwealth start pushing the war graves commission and their goverment(s) for a much stronger British envolvement in this important case! Although the province council means well, there is much more knowledge in Britain/commonwealth when it comes to battlefield preservation and I think it is fair to say after what happened that they can use a little help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummell Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Thanks for keeping us up to date, Bert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Distressed visitor http://geometryofsleep.com/2015/03/02/the-loss-of-hill-60/ Thoughtful and very moving observations by the 'distressed visitor' ... and interesting comments below them by Andy Prada of the Durand Group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 16 April , 2015 Share Posted 16 April , 2015 Very excellent link to "distressed visitor" looks like just another theme park whether you like of not and if this is continued the very reason we visit Flanders will be just a memory so go now before its completely trashed. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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