British ex-soldiers in Australia After the War

[Beechhill]

If I may hijack the thread with a follow-up question - Does using civilian transport for reservists (being a grey zone between military and civilian) heading for their garrison affect the ship's neutrality?

[augmauns]

Re 8266 FW Cullen.

His Aust record at the Nat Archives (Series MT1487/1 Barcode 6037046) has a number of entries re pension paid to his wife & son. They are somewhat confusing with unclear dates but imply they received an Australian pension in addition to the UK one mentioned by BFBSM above.

Eg son was paid "5/- weekly from Imperial Government until 18th year" (Feb 16); and in 1918 "10/- per fortnight until 24/2/29". My assumption is that he received a local pension discounted by the amount he received from the UK.

I have read through a sample of the records of other reservists and find no others that mention a pay rate of 6/- per diem. So maye was an error?

Cheers ... Greg

[Ken S.]

I have a few copies somewhere dealing with this from the local newspaper. IIRC, they were stopped from doing so, but some made it back anyway. After the war there were several books published with accounts of how German men went to great lengths to get back to the Fatherland to rejoin their units. Some were from the USA, but none that I know of from Canada. Canada's internment camps are well known because the Ukrainian community has in recent decades made an issue out of this. Some camps had a fair number of Germans and Austrians, too - some being POWs. Library and Archives of Canada has digitzed the war diary for the camp in Nova Scotia (where Trotsky & his friends were briefly held); makes for interesting reading.

On a related note, it is believed that, in addition to Imperial reservists, there were German and Austro-Hungarian reservists leaving Canada for Europe! It would be interesting to know if they ever encountered each other on board ship!

All the best,

Gary

[Ken S.]

Along these lines - if it's of interest - is an article from the Hamilton Spectator (Ontario, Canada) - August 7, 1914 p.14:

VETERANS ARE
READY TO GO
TO THE FRONT
- - - - -
Ex-Army and Navy Men Rally
Round Colors
- - - - -
Large Number Signed the
List Last Night
- - - - -
Names Will be Forwarded
to Col. Hughes
- - - - -
Last night there was a great rally
to the colors of the old British military
and naval men who are at present
located in Hamilton, and their en-
thusiasm to go forward and assist
their country in the time of trouble
is a tribute to their wonderful patriot-
ism. Scores of men now in good posi-
tions are ready to throw up their sit-
uations and exhibited an intense eager-
ness to once more shoulder a rifle or
help to man a warship on behalf of
Britain, and to renew afresh the oath
they once took to defend their king
and his subjects.
Ed. P. Wyatt, of 26 Argyle avenue,
secretary of the Army and Navy Vet-
eran society of Hamilton, stood with
a list in the market square for two
hours and took the names, addresses
and regiments of all those ex-service
men who were willing to go to the
front, and for two hours he was kept
extremely busy. In his haste, how-
ever, he omitted to obtain the ages
of ex-soldiers and sailors, and as this
is a most important detail, he asks
those who did not provide this in-
formation last night to do so to him
by postcard at his address at once.
The list is not yet by any means com-
plete, and Mr. Wyatt will be glad to
receive the signatures of those ho
have not yet signed their names, and
he will remain at his home from 4.30
this afternoon for that purpose.
The list, when completed, will be
forwarded to the minister of militia
at Ottawa, who will doubtless call
upon the men as they are requires.
Among those who volunteered their
services were two men who served
with the Canadian contingent in the
South African war--W. B. Smith, of
VanWagner's Beach, who went out
with the Sixth Canadian Mounted
Rifles, and T. G. Granby, of 133
Macauley street east, who served with
the Third Canadian Mounted Rifles.
The following is a complete list of
those who appended their signature
to the list last night:
F. Fleming, 46 1-2 James street
north, Royal Surrey regiment
F. Wright, 223 Rosslyn avenue, 1st
Loyal North Lancs.
S. S. White, Bell Telephone Co., Roy-
al Field Artillery
A. J. Brider, 753 Cannon street east,
1st York and Lancs.
F. Bryant, 36 Hope street, Somerset
regiment
J. Gee, 73 Stirton street, 1st High-
land light Infantry.
J. Murray, 158 Barnesdale avenue,
2nd King's Liverpool regt.
Geo. Hollis, Royal Engineers.
E. Buckley, Yorkshire regt.
A. Fletcher, North Staffordshire
regt.
W. Smith, 86 Catharine street north,
Royal Garrison artillery.
T. Saywell, 365 Catharine street north,
1st Leicestershire.
J. Park, 49 Maple avenue, 1st Royal
Scots.
H. Mayo, Salvation Army Metropole,
5th Northumberland Fusiliers.
W. Taylor, 79 Birmingham street,
1st Cheshires.
A. Leadbeater, 64 John street north,
Lancashire Fusiliers.
J. Edwards, 11 Murray street east,
Scottish Horse.
C. O. Bryan, 15 Napier street, Royal
Canadian Dragoons.
W. Gibson, 172 catharine street
north, 21st Lancers.
T. Murray, 171 King William street,
Lincolnshires.
A. Ford, 72 Victoria avenue south,
4th Imperial Yeomanry.
G. Sadler, 28 Land street, 1st Scot-
tish Yeomanry.
J. Morton, 204 Hunter street, Royal
Navy.
J. Tierney, 237 King street west,
Scotch F[usili]ers.
A. Golding, Asylum, 17th Lancers.
J. G. Boyd, 221 Caroline street, 5th
Scottish Borderers.
J. Stuart, 8 Ravenswood avenue, 2nd
Seaforth Highlanders.
W. Pocker, 228 Barton street east,
19th Foot regiment.
W. Box, 226 [?] Hughson street north,
1st Battalion Buffs.
J. Booker, 138 Young street, Man
-chester regt.
S. Scott, 31 William street, Mount
Hamilton, 1st west Riding regt.
P. A. Buttery, 222 Jackson street
west, 5th Royal West Kent regt.
Wm. Young, army service corps.
Robert Simpson, 54 1-2 James street
north, Scottish rifles.
W. J. Reid, 84 Earl street, Royal
Canadian Rifles.
J. Kelly, 209 Rebecca street, Royal
Scots regt.
A. Jarman, Sherman avenue, Royal
Irish Rifles.
D. Flight, 52 Clark avenue, 2nd
Black Watch.
J. Beckett, 204 John street north,
R. P. Rs.
H. Hyam, 109 Hughson street south,
1st Rifle Brigade.
G. Knight, 62 Sheaffe street, 2nd
Leicestershire regt.
T. Ford, 139 Main street west, 28th
Field artillery.
A. Willey, 46 Gore street, Royal
Horse artillery.
R. Crook, 74 Walnut street, King's
Royal rifles.
J. Basnett, 56 Niagara street, Royal
North Lancashires.
T. Whitehouse, 195 Hess street north,
King's Yorkshire Light infantry.
T. Mason, 146 Burlington street east,
Manchester regiment.
W. Rabbit, 13 Agnes street,
Scot-tish Light infantry.
James Stewart, 84 Keith street,
First Gordon Highlanders.
J. Rutter, 156 Simcoe street east,
First North Shropshires.
George Mitchell, 99 Emerald street
north, Black Watch.
C. E. Hall, 244 James street north,
Royal Canadian regiment.
G. Winder, 14 Guise street, Army
Medical corps.
J. Williams, 207 Rebecca street, 20th
Scottish Fusiliers.
T. Moore, Asylum, Royal Field artil-
lery.
James Drury, 47 Gore street, Royal
Horse artillery.
J. H. Martin, 101 Burlington street
east, 2nd Evans.
J. Redman, 70 Early street, 4th
Northwest Derbyshires.
M. Clarkson, 28 Madison street, Royal
Horse artillery.
T. G. Owen, 171 Emerald street north,
2nd Manchester regiment.
J. Borland, 33 Macaulay street east,
2nd Lancashire Fusiliers.
J. Love, Alexander street, Elswick
battery.
J. Harrison, ---------- Rifle brigade.
N. Woods, 578 Catharine street north,
16th Lancers.
J. W. Binley, 8 1/2 John street north,
5th East Surrey. [?]
D. C. Howie, 226 Macaulay street
east, 2nd Highland brigade.
J. W. Bizley, 8 1/2 John street north,
Army Pay corps. [?]
James Haynes, 133 Simcoe street
east, 1st King's Own Light infantry.
A. Percival, 32 Balmoral avenue, 4th
Hussars.
H. Woods, 182 Rebecca street, Royal
Sussex regiment.
W. Harris, 9 Clarence square, To-
ronto, Royal navy.
R. Pickup, 264 Robert street, Royal
Scots Fusiliers.
E. Heoger [?], Homeside postoffice, 1st
Royal Sussex.
W. B. Smith, VanWagner's beach,
6th Canadian mounted rifles.
G. G. Gronby [?], 134 Macaulay street
east, 3rd Canadian mounted rifles.
E. Dagleish, Stoney Creek, 13th Ray-
al regiment.
G. W. Sutcliffe, 143 market street,
27th company, Imperial yeomanry.
A. Kay, 199 Berlin avenue, Royal
North Lancashires.

[Staycalm]

I am trying to trace the movements of my Great Grandfather George Ernest Sheppard after the war. He was born in England and served in the RGA from 1904 to 1907 and then emigrated to Australia. Upon the outbreak of war he returned to England and served for the duration of the war. He returned to his family in Australia and drops from the records around 1932.

Questions I am trying to get my head around:

He would have gotten a pension of some sort wouldn't he?

At what point does this kick in? A certain age or deterioration in health?

Where did it come from? In other words, who paid it to him? The British government?

Would he have been entitled to any care in Australia if he had issues after his war service?

Would the local repat hospitals have provided care?

I need to understand what sort of financial support he might be entitled to and try to trace any records that might indicate where and when he died, if such things exist. I don't know whether to look in English Archives or in the local Victorian Archives or both.

Appreciate any help on this one. Cheers!

[Coldstreamer]

do you know if he was on the reserve ?

I have a man who was in the Army, went to Australia and then was recalled when war broke out as on the reserve

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Staycalm

There were two types of Army pension: those for wounds, and those for long service. To earn the latter he would have had to have served for at least 22 years, which looks unlikely in this case.

Pensions for wounds, including sickness or disability caused by military service, were awarded by a medical board, and were usually subject to periodic review to re-assess the extent of disablity. Do you know whether your GGF was wounded during the war? Such a pension would have been paid by the British Government and administered through the Royal Hospital, Chelsea.

Ron

[David_Underdown]

It sounds like he probably originally signed up for 3 and 9 - 3 years active service and 9 on the reserve, so he was still a reservist at the outbreak of war as Coldstreamer suggests. A pension on the basis of service required 21 years service. Those who served during the war received a one-off war gratuity. Australia also had various schemes such as soldier settlers, but as it sounds as if he already had land in Australia before the war this may not be applicable (unless the scheme actually existed pre-war, and that was how he went out there in the first place?). I presume he'd still ahve been allowed to join RSL, but I don't know to what extent the federal and state governments in Australia extended benefits to those whose service was with the British Army.

[corisande]

He did in fact sign up for 3 + 9

His papers are on FmP - click for them if you have a subscription. They show him enlisting in RGA in 1902 as an 18 year old labourer from Birmingham

[CGM]

Some questions being raised on this thread may have already been answered in these previous threads:

George Ernest Sheppard

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222991&hl=

Reservists not in England when recalled?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223396&hl=

Worth a look, I think.

EDIT

The above links are no longer valid as all 3 threads have now been combined.

CGM

[corisande]

Sheeeesh, why do I bother

[rksimpson]

HI

It would make things easier for all, with research on one person, if you kept it all together in one thread. Then we all know what has been established before.

regards

Robert

[David B]

Staycalm,

what Australian state did your g/grandfather settle in as each state keeps their own records on b d m. My grandfather migrated in 1925 after serving in the RGA for 30 years and during his lifetime

received his army pension and from 1941 until his death in 1951 also a yearly gratuity from his MSM (awarded in 1941).

[rksimpson]

Hi Dave

According to a couple of trees on Ancestry it was Victoria - here is the 1924 one -

Albert Park, Melbourne Ports, Victoria, Australia 36 Herbert Street, Albert Park, Rubber wrkr Seems to go cold after that and I have looked at deaths. regards Robert

[David B]

Thanks Robert, I should have looked at the rest of the thread, too early in the morning for this old head.

[Staycalm]

Sorry if I confused things. I was really asking about the processes post war. I am a pretty good generalist researcher, especially in Australian records. It's just when I am trying to understand the difference between serving in the British Army and serving in the Australian military I need the help and advice.

What I am trying to work out is whether I can track him in any kind of repatriation records, either here in Australia or from English records.

When I say he drops from the records I mean he's gone. Not on Electoral rolls, no death in Vic, not in any cemetery records I can access, not in the Sands & McDougall directories at his wife's address, not in TROVE newspapers. I have searched sporadically for him over the years but had very little luck post 1924 until recently when I found him in the directories to 1933. I have also tried passenger lists between England and Australia, English deaths, British newspapers... When his wife dies in 1951 she is documented as being married but the information was provided by an agent and it's possible they didn't have all the information. Her youngest daughter was in labor the day she died so the family may have been pretty stressed.

ETA: I don't think he was wounded but he was discharged in 1920 as being unfit for military duty.

[frev]

This file at the NAA may contain some info that may help - if you click on the Series number B73, it will explain what types of detail it may or may not contain

You'd need to order a copy as it's not on-line

Item details for: B73, R61536

Request copy

Title

SHEPPARD, George Ernest - Service Number - 20018

Contents date range

1919 - 1920

Series number

B73
Click to see which government agency or person created this item.

Control symbol

R61536

Item barcode

20603760

Location

Melbourne

Access status

Open

Date of decision

23 Dec 2014

Physical format

PAPER FILES AND DOCUMENTS (allocated at series level)

Records authority class number

17692

Date registered

22 Dec 2014

[Staycalm]

Thanks frev. I'll give it a go.

[Staycalm]

Revisiting this topic after giving it a few years to stew.  😉

 

I found the digital image of 4 pages of repatriation details for GES in the National Archives of Australia but I'm struggling to work out what things mean. It's amazing that I now have the first evidence that he is deceased! Can anyone give me a little more insight please? 

 

Title	SHEPPARD, George Ernest - Service Number - 20018
Contents date range	1919 - 1920
Series number	B73 Click to see which government agency or person created this item.
Control symbol	R61536
Citation	NAA: B73, R61536
Item barcode	20603760
Location	Melbourne
Access status	Open
Date of decision	23 Dec 2014
Physical format	PAPER FILES AND DOCUMENTS (allocated at series level)
Visibility and availability indicators	67. Digital image charge: Small
Records authority class number	17692
Date registered	22 Dec 2014

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Link to aforementioned record
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=20603760

[frev]

 

The Repat file is pretty sparse on detail – but it appears he applied for assistance in 1919, for which eligibility was approved for a pension of 15/- (15 shillings) per week for himself and a further 15/5 (15 shillings 5 pence) for his dependants – a total of 30/5….

 

He died in England in 1928:

 

The Age (Melb, Vic), Sat 29 Sept 1928 (p.13):

DEATHS

SHEPPARD – On the 14^th August (suddenly), at Nottingham, England, George Ernest, husband of Charlotte Sheppard, of 36 Herbert-street, Albert Park.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204130894

 

Death Index:

Surname	First name(s)	Age	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Sep 1928   (>99%)
Sheppard	George E	42	Nottingham	7b	241

 

 

Cheers, Frev

[Staycalm]

frev - Thankyou!!!!! OMG I have literally been searching for years and you found it in Trove. This is massive for me as it frustrated me no end that I couldn't find his year and place of death. It just goes to show that having someone who can step back a bit on the research can bring answers.

You are definitely my favorite person right now 

 

The sad irony is that nearly 70 years later his daughter also died suddenly while on a trip to England.

[frev]

I'm very happy that you're so happy - always great to fill in those missing pieces of the puzzle of our ancestors lives (and deaths)

Sounds like those trips to England should be avoided at all costs!

 

Cheers, Frev

[Staycalm]

Thanks to frev I have knowledge of his date and place of death. I am now interested in the cause of his death. My local library used to have a subscription to the British newspaper archive but doesn't any longer. I just went and had a peek at what I could find without a sub and saw this...

 

NOTTINGHAM GAS DEATH. George Ernest Sheppard, lodging at 19, Carrington-street, Nottingham, was found dead- in -Die ...

Published: Thursday 16 August 1928 
Newspaper: Nottingham Journal 
County: Nottinghamshire, England 
Type: Article | Words: 532 | Page: 5 | Tags: none

 

If anyone here is able to find this article, and possibly any others, on the events of his death I would be most grateful.

 

Edited to add: Further developments. How sad.

HIS LAST GAMBLE

... MOTHER. The tragic circumstances associated with the death of a Birmingham man, who was found dead in the bathroom of a Nottingham boarding house, with the gas turned on, following a visit to the Nottingham races, was investigated by the City Coroner (Mr. ...

Published: Friday 17 August 1928 
Newspaper: Nottingham Evening Post 
County: Nottinghamshire, England 
Type: Article | Words: 1189 | Page: 8 | Tags: none

Edited 13 July , 2019 by Staycalm
More info

[frev]

Staycalm - I have sent you a personal message...

Cheers, Frev