Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Royal Marine Artillery "Special Gun"


sotonmate

Recommended Posts

Rummaging in a shipping ledger this week at Kew for Jan to Mar 1916 (WO25/3711- Abroad to Abroad). An entry for the cargo ship "Crown of Aragon" on voyage Alexandria (8 March) to Marseilles (15 March):

RMA Special Gun and Daimler vehicles:

5x105hp Tractors

1x3-ton Lorry

1x 20HP car

all supplied by Coventry Ordnance Company.

Shipping document signed by a Captain W Ledgards RMA.

Anyone know what was special about the gun ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was probably either a 12-inch or 15-inch howitzer. Some of the former and all of the latter were manned in France by RMA personnel, and there weren't that many of them.

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was probably either a 12-inch or 15-inch howitzer. Some of the former and all of the latter were manned in France by RMA personnel, and there weren't that many of them.

Ron

A 12/15" howitzer going from Alexandria to Marseilles ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, blow me down! This must be the ignominious return journey of the 15" COW howitzer that someone, in their wisdom, thought it would be a good idea to send out to Gallipoli. Various sources say that it was sent, but was not used, and one says that it was not used because it could not be landed. What is not clear, however, is at what stage it was realised that the means did not exist to transfer this behemoth and its tractors etc from a transport ship to the shore.

I was recently contacted by another member who has found a photo of the gun and tractors sitting in a freight yard, with palm trees in the background .... which we agreed was most likely at Alexandria. I speculated that whoever oversaw the unloading of the gun etc at Alexandria, where there were heavy-lifting port facilities, probably put in a report to the effect that trying to land it at Gallipoli was a non-starter .... and Sotonmate's discovery certainly tends to confirm my suspicion.

It would be interesting to discover whose idea it was and what job was envisaged for the gun, given its short range and the ready availability of long-range heavy naval guns offshore. 'Granny goes to Gallipoli' !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you gents,this place never lets us down !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A 12/15" howitzer going from Alexandria to Marseilles ?

I thought that looked implausible, too, but SG has provided a possible, indeed probable, explanation.

As to whose idea it was, the initials WSC spring fairly readily into the frame!

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was RMA 15-inch howitzer No.3, sent to the Dardanelles, embarking at Marseilles on 12 April 1915. It sat in its transport ship at Mudros for "many months" until summer 1915 when it went to Alexandria and was unloaded. The gun left Alex on 6 March 1916 and returned to France, disembarking Marseilles 16 March in time for the Somme offensive.

[blumberg, "Britain's Sea Soldiers", pp. 281-2]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, blow me down! This must be the ignominious return journey of the 15" COW howitzer that someone, in their wisdom, thought it would be a good idea to send out to Gallipoli.

Mick, for those of us who are artillerilly challenged can you define what COW means and what sort of range it would have? I'm just reading a book on Gallipoli by some bloke called Hart and this fits in with the whole sense of shambles.

Pete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coventry Ordnance Works, I'll hazard. Don't know the range, I"m afraid

Coventry Ordnance Works, I'll hazard. Don't know the range, I"m afraid

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coventry Ordnance Works, I'll hazard. Don't know the range, I"m afraid

Thanks Paul, that sounds pretty plausible to me. I was in two minds to ask the question just in case it was blindingly obvious to everyone else and I would end up with egg on my face. I could have tried the searching the electrical interweb but occasionally this throws up mnemonics that young persons use that either inpeneterable or unpleasant or both. I'm clearly not in with the in crowd.

Pete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Pete. I thought Sotonmate's initial post had already mentioned the Coventry Ordnance Works, but in fact it said Coventry Ordnance Company.

The range of the 15" howitzer was between 10,000 and 11,000 yards.

Many thanks to H2 for the reference to Blumberg, which I have, but never thought of looking in. So it appears that Granny did get within sight of Gallipoli, before being diverted away to Mudros and eventually 'returned to sender' via Alexandria. Blumberg says that the Admiralty ordered the gun to be sent to Gallipoli, but not what use they had in mind for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Pete. I thought Sotonmate's initial post had already mentioned the Coventry Ordnance Works, but in fact it said Coventry Ordnance Company.

The range of the 15" howitzer was between 10,000 and 11,000 yards.

Many thanks to H2 for the reference to Blumberg, which I have, but never thought of looking in. So it appears that Granny did get within sight of Gallipoli, before being diverted away to Mudros and eventually 'returned to sender' via Alexandria. Blumberg says that the Admiralty ordered the gun to be sent to Gallipoli, but not what use they had in mind for it.

Thanks Mick, I was wondering if it meant something mathematical to do with muzzle velocities and shell trajectory; I'm quite pleased it does not. I wonder if the gun was intended to fire across to the Asiatic side of the straights in the event of the occupation of the peninsula.

Pete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My artillery notes show - BL 15” Mk1 – private venture by Coventry Ordnance Works for RM arty – 1400 lb HE 10,790 yds only 1 made. I did not know it was called 'Granny'. I wonder if it was 'Mother's mother.

On a more serious note, what was the thinking that provide the RMA with very large heavy pieces. Was it because they manned one of the battleship turrets and hence new about large guns? Does not seem likely as the use of a wheeled howitzer on land seems to have little in common with a large gun at sea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps it was a hangover from the original field gun episode at Ladysmith, as achieved in 1899 by the Naval Brigade?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rummaging in a shipping ledger this week at Kew for Jan to Mar 1916 (WO25/3711- Abroad to Abroad). An entry for the cargo ship "Crown of Aragon" on voyage Alexandria (8 March) to Marseilles (15 March):

Shipping document signed by a Captain W Ledgards RMA.

For the record (info also taken from Blumberg) when he set out on this odyssey Capt W R Ledgard* was accompanied by Lieutenants Craven Webley, Barrington-Ward and Rigby, plus 200 NCOs and men.

*edit to add Ledgard got the DSO (1st Jan 1917)

*further edit to add:

Major William Rimmington Ledgard DSO

Invalided 18 June 1917

Date of Death; 23 July 1917

Regt; RMA, No.3 Battery

Grave ref; H. 9. 48

Cemetery; East Finchley Cemetery & St. Marylebone Crematorium

Edited by michaeldr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My artillery notes show - BL 15” Mk1 – private venture by Coventry Ordnance Works for RM arty – 1400 lb HE 10,790 yds only 1 made. I did not know it was called 'Granny'. I wonder if it was 'Mother's mother.

On a more serious note, what was the thinking that provide the RMA with very large heavy pieces. Was it because they manned one of the battleship turrets and hence new about large guns? Does not seem likely as the use of a wheeled howitzer on land seems to have little in common with a large gun at sea.

Mick is probably the best person to answer this in full, but there were 12 of these guns and they did sterling service from February 1915 (in action 6th March) right through to November 1918

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 15-inch howitzers were not wheeled, though they could be broken down into tractor-drawn loads. I think the same is true of those 12-inch howitzers which were not rail mounted.

Personnel for manning the tractors was normally provided by the ASC MT units. This is not to say that RMA personnel did not carry out this role too, especially in the Mediterranean area, but I don't have a copy of Blumberg's book to check it out.

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to see a photograph of a weapon as large as this being moved from A to B. Lot of photographs of the heavy artillery taken to Belgium, in the Dover Patrol by Bacon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personnel for manning the tractors was normally provided by the ASC MT units. This is not to say that RMA personnel did not carry out this role too, especially in the Mediterranean area, but I don't have a copy of Blumberg's book to check it out.

Ron,

Blumberg gives the following details

Each gun had five 100hp tractors manufactured by Foster of Lincoln

Each tractor pulled two trucks and one of the five tractors pulled three; 11 trucks in all

Trucks 1 to 9 carried parts of the gun and base platform, while trucks 10 & 11 carried 11 rounds of ammunition each

In addition, for each pair of guns there was a spare tractor and base platform on three trucks as well as a workshop

Drivers and mechanics were taken on short service engagements and trained at Fosters. Additional transport manpower was available when the RM Motor Transport Company was disbanded.

Each howitzer had;

1 Commanding Officer

1 Gun Officer

2 Observing Officers

1 Motor Transport Officer

1 Artificer

1 Battery Sergeant Major

1 Battery Quartermaster Sergeant

55 NCOs and men

25 Drivers

All of the above were RMA personnel

.......................................................

There is an IWM photograph of 'Granny' here, although in the text it is described as Gun No.2 (not No.3).

Further, and despite the differing name and number quoted, the description of the position/action actually coincides with Gun No. 4, per the condensed diaries quoted by Blumberg (p.291)

Nevertheless, for what it's worth see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_15-inch_howitzer#mediaviewer/File:15inchHowitzerGrannyMeninRoad4October1917.jpeg

regards

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to see a photograph of a weapon as large as this being moved from A to B. Lot of photographs of the heavy artillery taken to Belgium, in the Dover Patrol by Bacon.

Not exactly what you are looking for, but nevertheless perhaps of interest:-

One of the Foster tractors - http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205252202

Film (from minute 11.00 >) of one of the howitzers being fired - http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022882

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be interesting to see a photograph of a weapon as large as this being moved from A to B. Lot of photographs of the heavy artillery taken to Belgium, in the Dover Patrol by Bacon.

The hand of Admiral Bacon is everywhere in this story. As MD of the Coventry Ordnance Works, he commissioned the chief designer to scale up the company's 9.2" siege howitzer and turned his own engineering skills to designing the train of special trucks that would carry the disassembled 15" howitzer and its mounting not only on-road but also off-road. He also designed the base platform (a system of girders) and conceived the idea of guns in the field having a spare platform (as mentioned by Blumberg). When a change of location was planned, the spare platform would be sent on ahead, so that by the time the gun and its mounting arrived, the platform was already in position and the gun could then be installed and brought into action very quickly. The platform at the old location was then dismantled and followed on behind. Bacon recorded in his autobiographical 'From 1900 Onwards' that the fastest 'set-up' of the gun and mounting on a platform sited in advance took just 45 minutes.

When he took command of the Dover Patrol, Bacon never found a use for the 15" howitzer with the RN Siege Guns on the Belgian Coast, but he did purloin one of the sets of tractors and trucks for moving big naval guns from Dunkirk to their emplacements along the coast (supplemented by other 'trains' borrowed from the RMA as required).

Even with heavy-lifting port facilities at his disposal at Dover and Dunkirk, Bacon designed equipment and methods for moving heavy guns that ensured it was never necessary to lift the dead-weight of the gun/mounting. I suspect that no-one thought to consult him before despatching No 3 to Gallipoli, otherwise he would either have advised against it or devised a means of getting it all ashore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael

Many thanks for your clarification of the establishment. I did suspect that the normal role of the ASC MT in moving the heaviest guns and ammo might not apply in this case!

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that above about 210mm there were few if any guns/howitzers with a normal field configuration (ie wheeled carriage) in any army. In UK service it probably started with the 240mm Skoda howitzers purchased in about 1901 to deal with the Boer forts around Pretoria. They arrived too late for that and were then sent to China where they may have fired a few rounds. It's unclear what happened to them after that. 9.2, 12in & 15in How all followed the same configuration (obviously coast and railway mountings were different).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...