headgardener Posted 24 February , 2015 Share Posted 24 February , 2015 This is not a subject I've researched, but I am struck by a certain uniformity of view in the media that the SAD were - to a man - suffering from what we would now call PTSD and were therefore executed unjustly and inhumanely. The universal pardon has been granted on this basis. I am sure many of the SAD did fall into this category - but how many? I can't believe that every deserter was suffering PTSD (notwithstanding any defence claims about shell shock); some must have taken a cold, clear look at conditions/life expectancy at the front and decided to chance it by deserting - a fairly rational decision given the circumstances! Has anyone done any analysis on this, or is the subject deemed too toxic to investigate? I'm not sure I'd agree that there is a uniform view that these men were all suffering from what we would now refer to as PTSD, although I would agree that media attitudes are fairly uniform in their sympathy for their plight. I'd also point out that Desertion was only one of a range of offences for which death sentences were carried out (those offences included 'disobedience', 'striking a senior officer', murder, 'cowardice', 'quitting their post', etc). The offence of 'Desertion' Implies that the army considered that the man had taken what you describe as a cold, clear, rational decision to leave the army without having any intention of returning, or in order to avoid an 'important duty' of some kind (such an attack on enemy positions). This is an entirely different offence to, for example, a spur-of-the-moment decision to retreat in the face of an attack without having been ordered to do so. Both offences might attract a death sentence, of course. A further issue is that only a very small percentage of death sentences were actually carried out. This prevents us from knowing exactly what was especially bad about the cases of those men who were executed for desertion or cowardice in comparison to those men who committed identical offences yet whose sentences were commuted. The fact that the surviving court records reveal various procedural errors in many cases is something that causes many to doubt the fairness or 'reasonableness' of the process that these men were submitted to. It pays to be clear about the language used in this debate because it can otherwise obscure the issues, which also detracts from the consideration of PTSD. It is a very emotive subject for many on both sides of the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 You`re quite right. The death sentences were for offences many and varied. PTSD may not have been a contributory factor in a lot of cases, but I think many of them were simply a case of individuals reaching the limit of their endurance and cracking. Even if he is found wanting, it`s hard to judge someone who has given his all, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 There were, of course, some very early desertions [regulars who had taken the King's shilling in peacetime] who left very early in the proceedings. Difficult for me personally to work up much sympathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Of course each case has to be merited on it's own. The cases were so varied. Some warranted sympathy, (I.M.H.O.) others may not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 And during the war roughly the same number were executed by hanging in England, (possibly the whole UK - long time since I found the link), generally for murder. The death penalty was an accepted part of the life it the UK. A handful of those executed for military crimes would probably have hung in peacetime. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Some quick points: PTSD is an overworked, misused and misunderstood term. There was nothing 'post' about the mental stress many serving soldiers suffered. It was contemporaneous with the front line experiences which induced the trauma. My resident military (Israeli Army) forensic psychiatrist tells me the two - post and contemporaneous trauma - are entirely distinct sets of mental disorders. The focus on numbers and percentages of those condemned, executed and reprieved ignores the huge disparities in how the system operated. For example, only 2 officers were executed for cowardice, but 90% of the VCs were given to officers. Why? It begs the question: were courage and cowardice construed as matters of class, rather than as a matter of impartial judgement. Why, pro-rata, were the all-volunteer Irishmen shot in four times the number of their non-Irish counterparts? For a working of the figures see the dossier of evidence submitted by the Irish Government to the UK Government in 2002 requesting pardons for the Irish soldiers SAD. Was there possibly some anti-Irish animus in the officer class of the British army? It is true that 90% of those sentenced to death were reprieve, but if the soldier was black, this figure fell to 50%. Why did the colour of the soldier's skin seem to determine whether they lived or died? Until such time as someone comes up with a plausible and acceptable explanation for these statistical disparities I will conclude that the exercise of the death penalty in the British army was utterly unfair and that all those who were shot deserve to be pardoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Well, Hedley, your stance on this issue is well known to those of us who have been around the forum for some years. I would really love to know what you would regard as a "plausible and acceptable" explanation. You know , as well as I know, that you are utterly biased and that nothing anyone would say would convince you to alter you stance. I accept that this is how you regard the subject. Such is life on a discussion board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Well posted Hedley!!......some people won't accept the statistics and the obvious conclusions to be drawn from them .....maybe it's a form of myopia ??? And drawing a thought-out conclusion from the facts you've pointed out above, certainly prove it's not a case of being biased, but you at least have taken the trouble to look at the topic with an inquiring mind!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 I think Hedley has raised some pertinent points. I`m completely convinced that racism, (both colour and Irish), was rife in the Armed forces, as it was in society in general at that time. Equally class prejudice was endemic in the Army. The judges and juries were all brass hats, and as I said earlier in this thread, it was the O.R`s or P.B.I. that were ordered to carry out the executions, which is something that really rankles me. That said. The death penalty was accepted as the norm for certain offences both in and out of the army, and on those grounds, I would have to say that some of them were warranted. (Some of them!) I think it`s wrong to consider them all under the same umbrella, and would repeat that I.M.H.O. each case should be looked at individually, and with the benefit of hindsight. Some will be mitigated, and some will not. For this reason, any kind of "blanket judgement" just doesn`t work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 90% of the VCs were given to officers. I'm amazed. Can you tell us the numbers? I'm don't necessarily disbelieve you, but I'd be interested to see. Does this apply to ALL VC's, or just British ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 WW1 VC's wiki Haven't been through them all. I doubt if it's as high as 90%, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 You have to watch out for dodgy statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 You have to watch out for dodgy statistics. Kind of devalues the post, which may, or may not have had some good points. I think the figure will be high, over 70%? but don't know exactly. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 WW1 VC's wiki Haven't been through them all. I doubt if it's as high as 90%, Mike I did look, but I couldn't be fagged to check them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 I did look, but I couldn't be fagged to check them all. Snap. I got to about 11...... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Maria Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Just had a quick look at my 'Monuments to Courage' and I made it about 292 issued to non-officers in WW1 (roughly 50%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 It is true that 90% of those sentenced to death were reprieve, but if the soldier was black, this figure fell to 50%. Why did the colour of the soldier's skin seem to determine whether they lived or died? Simple answer to that: look at the offences of which they were convicted. A far higher proportion of the "black" (your word) soldiers were sentenced to death for murder, a crime which elicited far less sympathy than the purely military offences. Analyse the reprieve statistics for the offence of murder, and your 90/50 % comparison won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Just had a quick look at my 'Monuments to Courage' and I made it about 292 issued to non-officers in WW1 (roughly 50%) But the numbers should be adjusted to reflect the far greater number of ORs compared to officers. What proportion of officers were awarded the VC, compared to the proportion of ORs similarly honoured ? And even when you have got these figures, there are genuine reasons why officers should have been over represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Maria Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 But the numbers should be adjusted to reflect the far greater number of ORs compared to officers. What proportion of officers were awarded the VC, compared to the proportion of ORs similarly honoured ? And even when you have got these figures, there are genuine reasons why officers should have been over represented. Only got a grade 4 C.S.E in maths I'm afraid, but it was interesting ( for me) to find out the rough figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 26 February , 2015 Share Posted 26 February , 2015 Only got a grade 4 C.S.E in maths I'm afraid, but it was interesting ( for me) to find out the rough figures. Very useful too, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 27 February , 2015 Share Posted 27 February , 2015 The author of the book on which this thread is based states that four of the fifteen Welshmen were executed for murder. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 27 February , 2015 Share Posted 27 February , 2015 The author of the book on which this thread is based states that four of the fifteen Welshmen were executed for murder. Bernard The whole war was murder!! sending troops over the top with no chance of success in wave after wave....what was that then...??? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 27 February , 2015 Share Posted 27 February , 2015 The author of the book on which this thread is based states that four of the fifteen Welshmen were executed for murder. Bernard Two of them would have been for the same incident, the one recounted by Graves. Given the small base number of fifteen (however that might figure proportionally) then statistical blips are bound to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 27 February , 2015 Share Posted 27 February , 2015 The whole war was murder!! sending troops over the top with no chance of success in wave after wave....what was that then...??? Tom Hmmmmm ... you've read much and learned little, I would say. Only got a grade 4 C.S.E in maths I'm afraid, but it was interesting ( for me) to find out the rough figures. I never quite managed to Maths O Level (I had six attempts, but it was never to be), but the figures bandied about do tend to support the old adage of there being lies, damned lies and statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 27 February , 2015 Share Posted 27 February , 2015 Hmmmmm ... you've read much and learned little, I would say. I never quite managed to Maths O Level (I had six attempts, but it was never to be), but the figures bandied about do tend to support the old adage of there being lies, damned lies and statistics. Lets just disagree Steven, we don't all have an oversized ego to go with our opinions... I have read, and have come to some conclusions that differ from the accepted norm. But luckily I was brought up to think for myself both in education and work, so what I have arrived at as an opinion is through reading, watching, listening and personal experience..... then I decide to believe where I think the truth lies.... regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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