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Remembered Today:

Shot at Dawn: The Fifteen Welshmen Executed by the British Army in the


The Scorer

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Steve agreed all graves are the same in death, usual protocols followed. However one SAD is recorded in the grave epitaph "Shot at Dawn, one of the first to enlist". If home war memorials had this supposed ban then the CWGC would be following with the ban.

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One of the things that I found interesting was that in the case of one man SAD, absolutely NO ONE from the following generations of his family in Scotland had ANY idea about his fate. His wife remarried and the topic was buried with that generation until fairly recently, when someone who was writing a book approached a grandson. He had no idea what had happened and there was no one left in the family who knew anything. It seems that the soldier had been French Canadian and had been trying to join a French Regiment when he was shot for desertion from the 8th Seaforth. I have the diaries for that time as my grandfather was in the same regiment, but the C.M. is not mentioned.

Hazel

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Steve agreed all graves are the same in death, usual protocols followed. However one SAD is recorded in the grave epitaph "Shot at Dawn, one of the first to enlist". If home war memorials had this supposed ban then the CWGC would be following with the ban.

This is one of the two Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Men. The notification to the family was that he had been killed but it was not until after the war they discovered the details. The addition to the grave marker was insisted on by his father and the full text reads

"Shot at Dawn. One of the first to enlist. A worthy son of his father"

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I attended the talk today by author Robert King. He is a passionate and elequent speaker who spoke for about 55 minutes with only a few references to his book; he used no notes. He said he had supported pardons for the SADs for 40 years and had been an active campaigner.He struck me as being a man who possibly gave emphasis to the theory that they were all shell shocked, the military were merciless etc.

I don't know a great deal about the SAD cases so, in the main, can't comment on the accuracy of his research. However, several of his comments struck me as dubious, as follows:

It was a war where 200,000 men went over the top and were killed in a four hour period.

Pals` battalions were sent to the front after two weeks training.

A government directive prohibited the SAD names being placed on local memorials though communities worked around that.

Wales had only two battalions: Swansea and Wrexham.

Conscription was introduced in 1917.

I would take issue with all the above it time had permitted.

I pointed out that the Swansea battalion only went overseas after 15 months or so of training. He accepted there were variations but some went over after two weeks.

I told him that Wales certainly raised more than two battalions including the two Cardiff battalions, the Carmarthen battalion etc. He had heard of the Carmarthen battalion but didnt think it really existed.

He mentioned the case of Captain Dyett and stated that this occurred after Parliamentary questions in 1918 had indicated that no officer had been shot and that really the Army then maliciously decided to shoot an errant officer and, if he were navy rather than army so much the better. Dyett was duly shot though I now know that that was 1917 rather than 1918 undermining Mr King's theory.

So, all in all I was very disappointed with the accuracy of some important facts that he outlined. He was not typically using notes so maybe, on occasion, he got dates etc mixed up but it seemed to be very loose with the facts.

I didnt buy the book.

Bernard

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This is one of the two Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Men. The notification to the family was that he had been killed but it was not until after the war they discovered the details. The addition to the grave marker was insisted on by his father and the full text reads

"Shot at Dawn. One of the first to enlist. A worthy son of his father"

Odd I had quoted that epitaph early but disappeared.

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I attended the talk today by author Robert King. He is a passionate and elequent speaker who spoke for about 55 minutes with only a few references to his book; he used no notes. He said he had supported pardons for the SADs for 40 years and had been an active campaigner.He struck me as being a man who possibly gave emphasis to the theory that they were all shell shocked, the military were merciless etc.

I don't know a great deal about the SAD cases so, in the main, can't comment on the accuracy of his research. However, several of his comments struck me as dubious, as follows:

It was a war where 200,000 men went over the top and were killed in a four hour period.

Pals` battalions were sent to the front after two weeks training.

A government directive prohibited the SAD names being placed on local memorials though communities worked around that.

Wales had only two battalions: Swansea and Wrexham.

Conscription was introduced in 1917.

I would take issue with all the above it time had permitted.

I pointed out that the Swansea battalion only went overseas after 15 months or so of training. He accepted there were variations but some went over after two weeks.

I told him that Wales certainly raised more than two battalions including the two Cardiff battalions, the Carmarthen battalion etc. He had heard of the Carmarthen battalion but didnt think it really existed.

He mentioned the case of Captain Dyett and stated that this occurred after Parliamentary questions in 1918 had indicated that no officer had been shot and that really the Army then maliciously decided to shoot an errant officer and, if he were navy rather than army so much the better. Dyett was duly shot though I now know that that was 1917 rather than 1918 undermining Mr King's theory.

So, all in all I was very disappointed with the accuracy of some important facts that he outlined. He was not typically using notes so maybe, on occasion, he got dates etc mixed up but it seemed to be very loose with the facts.

I didnt buy the book.

Bernard

Thanks for this. Robert King's most obvious error, in the sense of the most easily checkable in a wide variety places, is the introduction of conscription supposedly in 1917, and I take the view that someone making an error on such a basic detail cannot be relied upon for anything else, This does not mean that everything else in his account is necessarily wrong, but that everything needs independently verifying before it can be trusted.

Thus the consensus on this thread that his claim of a governmental prohibition of SAD names being put on local war memorials is fallacious is effectively corroborated.

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It came across as only two Welsh battalions. I and a WFA chum sitting next to me both interrupted him. There was no mention of Pals, regular or TF units and his comment that the Carmarthen battalion didnt really exist (!!??) was simply jaw dropping! I told him there was Steve Johns` book on it but he stuck to his comment. He was polite at all times.

Bernard

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He also commented that the Welsh Division units at Mametz Wood were wiped out. There is a well known quote that the 16th Welsh (the Cardiff battalion) `died on the Somme` but it and other units actually carried on into 1918 despite the losses which were heavy of course but in the context of the Western Front were by no means the worst experienced.

So, as I said, a disappointing exposition of Great War knowledge which makes you wonder about the rest of it.

Bernard

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This is one of the two Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Men. The notification to the family was that he had been killed but it was not until after the war they discovered the details. The addition to the grave marker was insisted on by his father and the full text reads

"Shot at Dawn. One of the first to enlist. A worthy son of his father"

....

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I attended the talk today by author Robert King.

I didnt buy the book.

Bernard

Thanks for your report on the talk; it sounds as if you had an interesting morning!

I agree that there are some very serious errors in what Mr King said, and it's worrying that he obviously believes them to be true.

I won't be buying the book, either!

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As I said Mr King is an elequent and fluent speaker. Curiosity got the better of me and I bought the Kindle version of the book. The author writes quite nicely as well and the book does not contain the verbal errors that popped up at the talk.

He writes in a manner that is sympathetic to the men and seems to have consulted thirteen files at Kew regarding individuals who appear in the book. What is written is succinct and flows nicely. The listing of the fifteen Welshmen and the relevant TNA WO 71 series file references are very handy for anyone who wishes to conduct personal research into them.

That said having contacted another researcher and compared his notes with what Mr King writes about one particular individual it is apparent that the author has failed to uncover some relevant material (understandable in some cases). Most seriously if Mr King has read the court martial file at Kew his brief write up of it is completely misleading! I'll not say more as my researching chum will be publishing in due course but it is now clearly apparent to me that the book by Mr King should be treated with a lot of caution.

That is very disappointing, of course. The stories of the men needs to be told fully and accurately. This opportunity seems to have been missed.

Bernard

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One of the things that I found interesting was that in the case of one man SAD, absolutely NO ONE from the following generations of his family in Scotland had ANY idea about his fate. His wife remarried and the topic was buried with that generation until fairly recently, when someone who was writing a book approached a grandson. He had no idea what had happened and there was no one left in the family who knew anything. It seems that the soldier had been French Canadian and had been trying to join a French Regiment when he was shot for desertion from the 8th Seaforth. I have the diaries for that time as my grandfather was in the same regiment, but the C.M. is not mentioned.

Hi Hazel, what is the name of this French Canadian? Unusual to be in the BEF?

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Hi Hazel, what is the name of this French Canadian? Unusual to be in the BEF?

I think his last name was 'Dalande', his first name might have been Herbert.

Edit: just checked - it's Hector Delande....! Quite impressed with my own recollection of the case!

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Hector Delande was the guy. I think he had been a lumberjack in Scotland and his English was very poor. Apparently the Scottish soldiers were hard to understand, and made fun of him.

Hazel

Hi Hazel, what is the name of this French Canadian? Unusual to be in the BEF?

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I haven't looked at the forum for a long while, but after seeing this post spoke to a friend, Steve John, who has carried out a lot of research into Welsh units, about this book and post on the forum and he sent me the following:

There were at least seventeen Welshmen, including a couple of Englishmen serving in Welsh units, who were executed during the war.

Two of these men were from Pembrokeshire, James Skone and John Thomas, both of the 2nd Welsh. Skone is commemorated on the Pembroke and Monkton Cenotaph, while Thomas is not commemorated at his local village of Lamphey, or in fact anywhere in Pembrokeshire. Skone was shot for murder, while Thomas was shot for desertion, yet Thomas is not commemorated locally, which seems odd!

Five of these seventeen men were shot for committing murder, one man for quitting his post and the rest for desertion.

He also says that there definitely was a Carmarthenshire Battalion (15th Welsh) (which even I know about as I have a copy of Carmarthen Pals), plus the Carmarthenshire Territorial Battalion (4th Welsh), plus dozens of other Welsh battalions... :)

I probably won't be buying this Welsh shot at dawn book either!

Diggler

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Steve knows his stuff...

Bernard

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Thank you Bernard. You have earned the drink off me, I await what is Steve's(?) Book soon.

If there is time I will add what I can, some comments may be hit by censure.

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Its a different researcher that provided me with info on one individual in Mr King`s book. And that info raised serious doubts in my mind. We'll have to wait for that book but its not devoted to the SAD cases...

Bernard

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This is not a subject I've researched, but I am struck by a certain uniformity of view in the media that the SAD were - to a man - suffering from what we would now call PTSD and were therefore executed unjustly and inhumanely. The universal pardon has been granted on this basis. I am sure many of the SAD did fall into this category - but how many? I can't believe that every deserter was suffering PTSD (notwithstanding any defence claims about shell shock); some must have taken a cold, clear look at conditions/life expectancy at the front and decided to chance it by deserting - a fairly rational decision given the circumstances! Has anyone done any analysis on this, or is the subject deemed too toxic to investigate?

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Nick

Welcome to the GWF. The subject has to be treated with respect, and you will find a number of topics in the forum in which the subject is discussed. It is well worth taking a look at a few of them.

Keith

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There are a few good books on the subject and each much be read in a harsh light so you can be objective.

Some men no matter the age we talk about are cunning and devious, given the nature of the army and high numbers employed you will not get a one size fits all the media enjoys.

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