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Units based at New Barracks. Fermoy 1918 -1922


chasray
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Hello,

Does anyone know which British Army Units were based in New Barracks, Fermoy from 1918 to 1922? I am interested particularly in December 1920. I am trying to find the WW1 records for a Harry Bennett who served in WW1 and the only information I have is from his son's birth certificate which stated that the father's name was Harry Bennett (Soldier) New Barracks, Fermoy. Living in King street, Fermoy. Date of Birth of his son (Edward Henry Bennett) was December 1920. I am hoping that if I can find the Units based at New Barracks I might be able to cross match them with some Harry Bennetts I have found on the MIC cards. Harry Bennetts wife was a Lillian Wraight. They both came from Kent and I believe Harry Bennett was based in New Barracks and his son Edward was born there whilst he was stationed in Ireland. Any help at all would be appreciated.

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chasray

The Baptismal Records of the Fermoy Garrison Church indicate that Harry Bennett was a Corporal in the 1st. Batt. Buffs (East Kent Regiment) and that Edward was born 20 Dec.20 and Baptised on 8 Jan.21. by the Garrison Chaplain.

http://ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/AngRecord/Fermoy_Garrison.pdf

Bear in mind that he may not have been a Corporal when he qualified for any medals.

Dave

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Hello Dave,

Thank you so much for finding that out for me. It is greatly appreciated. I don't suppose you know when the 1st Batt. Buffs went to Ireland and when they returned. I believe their next child was born in Kent in 1923 so that would indicate that they returned home before that date. Harry married Violet Lillian Wraight in Kent in 1919. Are there any Battalion records on-line Dave? I also believe that they had a further child (Charles) in 1919 possibly in when in Ireland. Thanks again Dave. It has been most helpful. Regards

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The Battalion were in Ireland from late 1919, following service in Germany as part of the Army of Occupation, until January 1922 when they returned to England. In April that year they moved to Turkey as part of the Army of Occupation there before moving to Gibraltar in 1923.

However, Maureen L Bennett was born in Elham, Kent in the first quarter of 1923, which gives the possibility that she was conceived whilst Harry was on leave before going to Turkey.

It is also possible that Harry did not go with them but stayed at home with the Depot or transferred to the 2nd Battalion which was UK based 1923-36 (Portland, Aldershot, Shorncliffe). Transfers between Battalions were not uncommon.
Further children were born in Elham - Alan J (1929) and Frederick G (1933).

I am not aware of any records on line, except War Diaries which don't cover Ireland as this was 'Home' Service'.

Dave

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Hello Dave,

Could you have a look at his MIC? I believe this is our Harry Bennett. Harry Bennett: Royal Sussex Regt L/9518 and East Kent Regt L/12124. Theatre of war 5G which I believe was India (North West Frontier) Peshawar.

The 1st Regular Batt, Royal Sussex Regt. were there I believe 1914 to Nov 1918. Then I guess a transfer to the Buffs and then Ireland until 1922. At the bottom of the MIC it mentions Shorncliffe Barracks Kent which I believe was Folkestone in 1924. It is a reference to his 1915 star. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards John

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http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/royal-sussex-regiment-1st-2nd.htmlsuggests that L/9518 would have enlisted in late 1910 as a regular. L/12124 would also be a regular enlistment - see http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/buffs-east-kent-regt-1st-2nd-battalions.html - but not sure when.

Looking at it another way, your Henry/Harry Bennett would show up on the post-war Army records (see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=221706&hl=), which has 46 BENNETT H's.

22 have "normal" service numbers with no prefix. A Buffs service number would be 62xxxxx or 63xxxxx per http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering20.htm- and there's only one of these:

ADT000050404 - 6278386 - BENNETT H - BUFF - 1896-Jul-09

Born 1896 would be too young to enlist in 1910, so this one's probably not the same as the MIC. Whether he's your original... no idea.

There's more with prefixes including one who's noted as "E KENT":

ADH001038192 - D/39077 - BENNETT HH - E KENT - 1892-Jun-13

Andrew.

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Hello Andrew,

Thank you for your kind help. On his sons marriage certificate it gave fathers name as Harry Henry Bennett so i guess the 1892 Bennett HH could be our man. I have sent for his own marriage certificate in 1919 Canterbury so i guess also that his unit was in Canterbury at that time which i believe the 1st Battalion of the East Kents were! Kind regards

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"HH" certainly helps - the only others with those initials given are 775592 (b. 1894) and P272117 (b. 1900). Definitely not the latter, and the former is a Royal Artillery number, so also unlikely.

Andrew,

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I just have this gut feeling that the MIC is the right one because of where the units were at important dates e.g. His sons birth in Ireland 20/12/1920 mentioning the East Kents and also the marriage index Canterbury where the East Kents also were in 1919 when they married and finally at the bottom of the MIC the Shorncliff garrison barracks which were in Folkstone were also mentioned regarding his 1915 star and also where his daughter Maureen was born in 1923. The family then settled in Folkstone for some further 30 years. Regards John

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Hi John,

I think I would agree - and D/39077 is quite plausibly the same man as the MIC. Born June 1892 would fit perfectly with a regular army enlistment in late 1910, after he turned 18. No idea what the new number signifies, though...

Andrew.

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Incidentally, if he did enlist in 1910 he'll be in the Army for the 1911 Census. 1/Royal Sussex were in India at that time, and 2/Royal Sussex at Aldershot - he could potentially have been either and changed at a later date. If you have an Ancestry subscription, details are here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176299

As to L/12124 - this might tell us when he transferred from RSR to the Buffs.

L/12127 died aged 21, 20 May 1920 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/75229236/

L/12164 died aged 20, 21 July 1920 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1481667/

L/12404 died 10 October 1919 -http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/368842/

L/12921 died 16 March 1920 - http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1450956/

So he must have transferred, at the very least, before October 1919. I am guessing he reenlisted as soon as the option came up in the spring of 1919 on a four-year engagement, which would take him through to 1923, when you note his daughter was born.

Andrew.

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Hello Andrew, I should have his marriage certificate tomorrow. The index tells me he married in the Canterbury registration district in the June quarter of 1919. I believe the 1st Battalion of the Buffs were in Canterbury then moved on to Fermoy later that year and then his first son was born in Fermoy in Dec 1920. The marriage cert will also give his fathers name and occupation and address. This should also help to find his birth year and the census return for 1901. I have a Ancestry subscription and will look at the 1911 census. I think they were in the Punjab in 1911. Did you look at the MIC and if so what did you make of the 1915 star being sent in 1924 at the bottom of the card? Kind regards

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Hello Andrew and all at the GWF.

The marriage certificate arrived this morning and stated Harry Henry Bennett married Violet Lillian Wraight 8/4/1919 in Canterbury. It also stated that he was 31 years old and a Lance Corporal in the Buffs with the number 60142. This seems to be in contradiction to what I believed and the MIC I thought I had found. Any further help would be most appreciated. Regards

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Interesting indeed!

So to recap: we know that your Harry Henry Bennett (interesting first names...) was born April 1887 - April 1888, and was a L/Corporal in an unspecified battalion of the Buffs (East Kent) with number 60142 in April 1919. He presumably reenlisted during 1919 and was a corporal in 1/Buffs by January 1920, when his son was baptised - and in August 1920 he would have got a new service number, *probably* still with 1/Buffs - but it's possible he'd transferred to a different unit by then.

Going back to the postwar indices, there are only 17 Bennetts (and no Bennets) born in the right period to be 31 on 8 April 1919, and only one of those (HP Bennett, 1022180) has an initial H. However, he also has a P, and a Royal Artillery number...

As for 60142... it's only a hint, but there are only three close Buffs service numbers in CWGC (58356, 61222, 61732); they were all in 10th (Royal East Kent and West Kent Yeomanry) Battalion, and all died in the UK in 1918/19. 61222 and 61732 were 19 when they died in 1919, so cannot have had their numbers very long!

Does 60142 help trace a new MIC?

Andrew.

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We have Harry Henry Bennett on the 1891 census with parents James William and Amelia Jane aged 2. James being a Clay Pipe maker on the census and also on Harry's marriage certificate. The 60142 is really throwing me out!! I can not find it under his name on the MIC's. I found 4 with that number but none were Harry. Could he have re-enlisted in 1919 prior to his wedding on the 8/4/1919? This would then give him that number!! Were the MIC's just for WW1? Could he have still enlisted in 1910 aged 21 (as per the first MIC) joined the Royal Sussex Regt then moved to the Buffs (1st regular Batt.) on return from India in 1918 then off to Germany with them (1st regular battalion) until they returned Jan. 1919. Then re-enlisted with new number and then off to Ireland with the 1st regular Batt. Buffs. Regards John

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He would have been able to re-enlist any time from spring 1919 onwards, so it's certainly possible he reenlisted before his wedding. (In fact, one of the incentives for reenlisting was two months leave, and it might have been an opportune moment...). He might also have reenlisted afterwards.

One thing to remember is that he know he was in the Buffs after re-enlisting, and possibly just before. If he reenlisted, it's likely that he would do so in his previous regiment - but there is no specific reason that he would have done so, so most of his wartime service could have been somewhere else entirely. There might not be a Buffs connection pre-1919.

As to dates, if he was two on the 1891 Census (5 April 1891), he would have had to have turned two between 6 April 1890 and 5 April 1891 - so born 6 April 1888 to 5 April 1889. The wedding dates mean he had to have turned 31 between 9 April 1918 and 8 April 1919 - so born 9 April 1887 to 8 April 1888. *If* his age was correct on both, a big if, this gives a very narrow window for his real birthday - 6 to 8 April 1888 - but the only "Bennett" in the post-war index with that birthday is an E Bennett, Royal Engineers, which doesn't sound right. Mysteriouser and mysteriouser...

Do you have the birth certificates for either of the later children, and do they give the father's occupation? It might give some other clues...

Andrew.

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The 1891 Census gave Harry born Canterbury 1889. I have checked for all Bennett's born 2 years either side of that date in Canterbury (no Harry's) save for one "male Bennett" born March quarter 1889. No Christian name just "Male Bennett" which could be our Harry!! Harry had a daughter born in the Elham Reg. District in 1923 after he returned from Ireland. The Elham District included Folkestone which the Harry Bennett on the first MIC said he was in 1924 (Shorncliffe Barracks, Folkstone). I think it might be a good idea to obtain that birth certificate which might connect her Father Harry to the original MIC. If it states address as Shorncliffe Garrison or Soldier etc. it might just give that connection back to our original MIC.

Regards John

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A second thought just occurred to me: not every man who served in WWI had a MIC. If he only served in the UK, and never went overseas, then HH Bennett 60142 would never have received the British War Medal, and so wouldn't have had any entries in the index.

Might this explain it? Conscripted say 1916, never left the UK, chose to reenlist, got married, remained in the Army for several years...

Andrew.

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  • 4 years later...

Hi,

I'm looking for a Corporal John James Murphy who married in Ireland and then they came over and were based at Shorncliffe in 1922 when my father's birth was registered in Elham, I can't find him on any census since he left Ireland, but I know he lived to 1958. Any help would be appreciated. :)

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So Buzyizzy, you’re Looking for a John Murphy from Ireland....mmm that should be a doddle. 🤔

 

If you have any additional information it would help narrow it down. What was his unit? What is his wife’s names? Where was he from, date of birth, residence etc.

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  • 2 years later...

My Grandfather Walter Jones, Born 17 May 1894, St. Martins  Shropshire.  As we suspected we found out that Water’s records were one of those destroyed during WW2.  However, from records we do have he was in the KSLI and that he may have been drafted in 1916 and after “careful elimination” we pinned the service number 35096 to Walter.  The reason being that this soldier survived and served in France and belonged to the correct unit for later service in Ireland.  This service number was issued in 1916. We also found a medal record for 35096.

We believe Walter may have been with the 2ns Bn KSLI in NI Curragh Feb 1918 - Jan 1919 or with the Reserve Bns 3/4 who moved to Fermoy New Barracks and Kilworth Camp.

My farther recollects that Water, although he never really talked about his time in the army, did say that he saw worse things during his time in Ireland than he did in France.  And one thing he did say was that "whilst on a church parade in Ireland the soldier next to him was shot".

From the British Newspaper Archives we searched the Ireland newspapers and have found press cuttings from 13 September 1919 where in Fermoy. Co. Cork a church parade of 15/18 soldiers from the KSLI were set on by the IRA and one soldier was shot and this started a riot by the others soldiers from the regiment which resulted in considerable damage done to many shops and premises in the town.

This is too much of a coincidence that I need to take further.  Are there regimental records from 1919?  Was there still ‘War diaries’ in 1919?  That may have survived WW2. This is what I have at this time if you can help further.   Ireland Church Parade 1919.pdf

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Coincidentally I listened to a podcast on this very subject this afternoon. Well worth a listen. 
See link here: Fermoy killing and Army riot  

See also link from Forum member Corisande’s Link to William Jones killed Fermoy

Also I don’t think there are any war diaries from this period - technically the KSLI were on HOME service. - but I could be wrong  

Jervis

Edited by Jervis
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WIlliam Jones' grave  is at Blaenycoed Chapel, Cynwyl Elfed, Carmarthenshire, as my photograph on Corisande's page shows.

He was the first British soldier ever killed by the IRA.

He was killed in Fermoy, the KSLI being barracked nearby.

He is currently commemorated on the Brookfield WWI Memorial as his burial place was unknown to them. It is 2 years since I notified CWGC of the true whereabouts of his grave.

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Many thanks Jarvis.  Very interesting podcast.  It seems that some newspapers report 18 soldiers from the KSLI and the others (including podcast) quote 15 with Cpl IC.  Also that a Private Lloyd was also very badly injured.  The Cpl's name was Frank Hudson who give evidence at the inquest.  There was also a private Benjamin Byles  and L/Cpl S Edwards giving evidence and were present.  I wonder if there is a record of all the names of the soldiers from the KSLI who were there on that day. 

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