Edward Mannock V.C. - who was he? - part 2

[conijoni]

You could try a search for Mammock. I have seen his name spelt this way.

[conijoni]

Forgot to say...W E Johns, author of Biggles, who knew Mannock, said of him...'Irish by birth, he displayed all the impetuosity of the Irish'.

[David Filsell]

Not a criticism at all, but I am amazed at the amount of detailed work which you guys have put into this question since it is of limited relevance to the man's career. A fascinating intellectual exercise certainly, and I fully understand that, but does it really add to anyone's real knowledge. I await brickbats, but I am genuinely interested in your drive on this topic.

Best regards

David

[corisande]

I would prefer we keep to the topic. If the debate widens, like many thread that widen, one veers too far from the topic to be useful

I am trying to find out who Mick Mannock was, not debate whether it is worth knowing. Your debate is something for Skindles

You can debate that much on the forum is not worth knowing, but accept that some wish to know

[David Filsell]

Thanks for that. Truly friendly - in the spirit of the forum.

[towisuk]

I would prefer we keep to the topic. If the debate widens, like many thread that widen, one veers too far from the topic to be useful

I am trying to find out who Mick Mannock was, not debate whether it is worth knowing. Your debate is something for Skindles

You can debate that much on the forum is not worth knowing, but accept that some wish to know

Well said! having come across what you suspect is FALSE information published in many books and articles, you have set-out to find the TRUTH...you are to be commended for your tenacity.

regards

Tom

[Errol Martyn]

Even where subjects under discussion might not be of direct interest to one there is sometimes much to be learned from following the methodology used, either to pick up on new sources or to gain a better understanding as to their reliability or interpretation thereof.

Errol

[David Filsell]

All not doubt true. But does it affect our views on Mannock the man to any relevant degree. That, not a hijack, was my point.

[corisande]

I would be grateful if we could return to the purpose of the thread, now and try to find out who Mannock was.

[kevinrowlinson]

Only picked up on this a little while ago, and acknowledging whether it is really important, I would gladly donate a tenner to the forum if the following is proven;

Eldest brother registered as Edward Patrick Corringham (as suggested) Qtr. Sept. 1886 Farnham (2a. 106)

Edward Mannock VC, DSO**, MC* registered as Edward John Mannook Qtr. June 1888 Holborn (1b. 716)

I am assuming that Patrick Mannock registered Qtr. March 1888 Islington is the son of the billiard player.

Kevin

[ss002d6252]

Only picked up on this a little while ago, and acknowledging whether it is really important, I would gladly donate a tenner to the forum if the following is proven;

Eldest brother registered as Edward Patrick Corringham (as suggested) Qtr. Sept. 1886 Farnham (2a. 106)

Edward Mannock VC, DSO**, MC* registered as Edward John Mannook Qtr. June 1888 Holborn (1b. 716)

I am assuming that Patrick Mannock registered Qtr. March 1888 Islington is the son of the billiard player.

Kevin

There was a death recorded no long after for

Name: Edward John Mannooch

Event Type: Death

Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep

Registration Year: 1888

Registration District: Holborn

County: London

Event Place: Holborn, London, England

Volume: 1B

Page: 334

Line Number: 121

Craig

[kevinrowlinson]

Definitely not him then.

Kevin

[David Gunby]

I have now a copy of the birth certificate of Edward Patrick Corringham, born Aldershot Barracks, 13 June 1886, son of Edward Corringham, 'Sergeant Scots Greys' and Julia Corringham, née Sullivan. This I believe to be Edward [Mick] Mannock, not Patrick John.

[corisande]

Good that you have good the cert. Shows what is there officially. And it does not match the fathers service record - but the eldest daughter Jesse's birth date is also difference between service record and GRO registration

But I don't think that it establishes that it is Mick Mannock.

If you look at these note of mine - click - you will see that his father's service record has Edward born 1886 and Patrick the younger born 1888. But by the 1891 census they are the other way round on the form, ie Patrick is the one born 1886 and Edward born 1887 (sic, from the age)

In later life, I believe that Patrick was accepted to be the older of the two brothers

Either way, the riddle is not solved until a birth registration can be found for the younger brother, whom I believe to be Edward VC.

[Airshipped]

I hesitate to get too bogged down here, as it will only repeat aspects of what have already been covered in this and other threads, but VC's use of 24 May as a DOB in some documentation may have arisen from it being Queen Victoria's birthday and the date from which Empire Day was calculated, i.e. it should have been an easy one to remember. Except VC doesn't seem to remember to use it consistently, e.g. see enlistment papers versus passport versus Royal Aero Club cert.

On the other aspect of who he was as opposed to where he was born? Regardless of his birthplace, all his contemporaries, e.g. de Burgh, McCudden, McScotch etc, regarded him as being Irish. Once they were all dead and gone VC was recycled in due course as a great English war hero. However, even his detractors regarded him as Irish, e.g. listen to Herbert Thompson harrumph re Mannock as "Irish ... prone to exaggeration" in Reel 4 below, about 9 mins into the 16 mins

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80000307

(Thompson was grumpy old man at that stage of his life but was a witty raconteur in his time, with 1,001 anecdotes, e.g. in his memoirs he claims that in his RNAS interview he had to answer questions on what sort of meat one would have with blackcurrant jelly).

Btw re VC's older brother do bear in mind that Edward Senior was supposedly in Egypt from September 1884 to July 1885, i.e. to sire a child with a date of birth in the first quarter of 1886 poses problems for some of those date ranges he uses even on those army papers.

[ckop4]

Worth noting that NONE of the five Cork city and county newspapers then in publication claim him as a Corkman.

[Airshipped]

If it helps? His sister Jess married a chap from the East Kent Regiment, (the Buffs), in 1905, a couple of years after the Corringham/Mannock family's return from India but not long after the father deserted. Ainge had also served in India, but you'd need to cross-check the locations to find out if Jessie knew him before their marriage in Canterbury. It certainly helped VC's mother Julia to have one less dependent, though at this stage Jess, Pat and VC were all working. Only the youngest (Nora/Lena/Helena) got to attend the local St Thomas school but given the likely age range for VC he probably wouldn't have gotten to stay in school anyway.

The siblings lives weave in and out. The reference on some forums to Jess being a prostitute is usually a dramatic procedural device used to help explain why VC not just moved in with the Eyles family in Northamptonshire but returned there rather than to his mother or his siblings when he was on leave. (VC's mother and eldest sister moved back and forth between England and Ireland quite a few times over the years).

If it's any help? Look at the number of times his father lost rank or was stripped of good conduct badges. He spent time in the cells on being convicted of theft. Two decades of being broken back to private every few years on some charge or other. The service records do reveal a man who was trouble.

The constant reinventions are sometimes used to tar VC as being some similar artist projecting an image of a stage Irishman as a means of distancing himself from his father's legacy but I prefer to just see each person on his own merits and faults, regardless of whatever reasons VC had for identifying with his Irish mother and playing up that aspect of his self.

Don't forget that Taffy Jones also uses Mannock as a ventriloquist's dummy for many issues Jones felt strongly about, e.g. Jones' obsession with parachutes etc. Quite a lot of what's out there in the various memoirs only reflects back a million and one distortions and contradictions that VC fostered in some instances but in other cases he's blameless and is the peg onto which other hang various hats.

[corisande]

Thanks for all the recent inputs.

I agree with most of what you say there Airshipped. The intermingling of truth, half truth and the need to push others opinions makes the whole thing difficult to untangle

I was in Cork last week, following up stuff I am doing on the Auxiliaries in Macroom. But went to Ballincollig as I was nearby.

I think I am satisfied that local historians have checked the Ballincollig records, and that his birth is not shown there.

My feeling at the moment is that he was born while his mother was in Dundalk, but I cannot find either his birth nor his sisters birth. You will recall Dundalk is given on his father's service record for VC, and on census for his sister.

[Airshipped]

I missed sight of this thread, buried in other things. When you were in Cork I never thought of mentioning that there was an angle to follow up his mother's side. They say that Julia Sullivan was the daughter of Mick and Honora Sullivan, whose families worked at Ballincollig gunpowder mill and on the Bowen-Colthurst estate at Blarney Castle. However, it's almost certain that her family were servants on the Colthurst estate at Ardrum, Inniscarra. It'd be a useful piece of info if it confirmed Julia's sibling as the Margaret Brennan who is minding a Dundalk-born Helena Corringham in Cork during the Irish Census 1901, i.e. it might throw some light on family movements.

Edward Mannock Senior was posted to India but also had a spell on home establishment (not to mention prison), so even if Julia was in India with some or all of their children it would not be inconceivable that the children spent time in Britain and Ireland during these years.

[Spymaster]

Fascinating thread. I am a bit late to this but worth noting that to mark the 100th anniversary of Mick Mannock’s death, Brighton and the  the Republic of Ireland held commemorative events.

 

and 378 (Mannock) Sqn ATC laid a wreath at Arras.

 

I will also point out that no one has ever laid claim to Mannock being an “English” ace, British is more accurate, which at the time included Ireland.

 

Of his contemporaries, Ira Jones wrote that Mick was born in Brighton. Hardly conclusive but at least he knew the ace 

[alex revell]

Excellent and painstaking  research by Corisande. It's of great value academically, but I know where David is coming from with his comments. Academic research rarely gives us any personal insight into the character of  the individuals involved.

I once met a niece of Mick Mannock. She was a lovely lady and we had a wonderful day out together. I later wrote the story of the day for our local writers' group, so my apologies for its light heartedness and non academic approach. Here it is:

 

 

Mrs Dickinson’s Day Out With The Mayor

 

After my daughter Christina had graduated from York, she went to work as a social worker in Mitcham, south London. One of the old ladies she visited on a regular basis was a certain Mrs Dickinson, a widow. She became very fond of Mrs Dickinson, a spry little lady in her early eighties, and would often pop in, unofficially, in her spare time, for a cup of tea and a chat. Over tea one afternoon Mrs Dickinson said, apropos of nothing in particular: ‘Of course, my dear, my uncle was a very famous airman in the Great War.’

'Really. What was his name?'.

'Oh, you wouldn’t have heard of him, Christie, you’re much too young.'

'Try me.'

'Well, he was my mother’s sister’s boy. His name was Mannock, Edward Mannock but everybody called him Mick. He won the VC, you know.'

Because of my interest in the airmen of the Great War, my daughter had grown up with tales of their exploits and she well knew who Mannock was. He had been killed in July 1918 and has no known grave in France, only his name on the Air Services Memorial at Arras, and a memorial plaque in Canterbury cathedral. I knew that every year, on the anniversary of Mick’s death, a small service is held by the plaque in Mick’s memory and I suggested that if Mrs Dickinson were up to the journey, we could all go to Canterbury for the next one, which was only a few months away. Mrs Dickinson hadn’t known of the existence of the plaque, or the yearly service, and said she’d be delighted to go.

We set off on the day: Mrs Dickinson, myself, my daughter and a friend. Mrs Dickinson, very excited, sat in the back, resplendent in her Sunday best - including a very stylist hat - and kept us amused with stories of her family and girlhood. Being on her own a great deal, she was an avid reader. She was currently reading the latest Jackie Collins. With evident relish she told us that the book was ‘very naughty, dears. They get up to all sorts of naughty things my old hubbie and me would never have dreamed of.’ We all had some difficulty in keeping straight faces, especially as the tone of her voice suggested that she now rather regretted they hadn’t.

  We arrived at the cathedral and found the plaque to Mick. Already there were the mayor of Canterbury, his lady wife, the chief clerk of the council and various assorted dignitaries. A vicar arrived, conducted a short ceremony, then came along the line shaking hands with everybody, thanking them for coming.

  As he approached us, Mrs Dickinson whispered to me ‘Don’t tell them who I am, dear.’ but when the Vicar shook her hand she blurted out, ‘I’m his niece, you know.’ For a moment the vicar looked puzzled. ‘Mick’s niece’, Mrs Dickinson repeated. There was immediate interest. The mayor came over and introduced himself and his wife: they were delighted to meet her, a great thrill. Struck by a thought, he then said that after the ceremony each year they always went to the local hospital, to give fruit and flowers to the current occupant of a bed dedicated to Mick’s memory, known as The Mannock Bed. Perhaps Mrs Dickinson like to join them. Mrs D, all shyness now forgotten, said she’d love to. I didn’t know the way to the hospital and it was arranged that Mrs D would go with the mayor in the mayorial car and we would follow. In case we should lose the mayor in traffic, the lady mayoress would come with us, in my car.

As we left the cathedral, the mayor’s black Daimler crossing in front of us, I caught a glimpse of Mrs D in the back, looking out of the window. She wasn’t exactly giving the Queen Mum wave, but it looked as if it were only a matter of time.

  At the hospital, we all gathered around Mick’s Bed. The present occupant was a serving major in the Tank Corps, obviously well on the way to recovery, cheerful and alert, thankful to escape from the daily hospital routine, if a little bemused by these strange visitors, especially the odd, elderly little lady with the pronounced south London accent. Mrs Dickinson, all inhibitions now gone, was in full Queen Mum mode, asking after the major’s health, if the food was good, was he being looked after. ‘And have you got enough to read.’ she asked . ‘I can recommend any books by Jackie Collins, I’m sure you’d like them.'

No, the major replied, he hadn’t actually read any of Miss Collins’ work but he’d heard they were certainly a good read. We all had difficulty keeping a straight face during this exchange, me in particular, and you know how infectious giggling can be - its spreads like wildfire and it’s unstoppable.

Our little party - myself, Mrs D, daughter and friend - finally left the hospital. As we exited through the doors I asked Mrs D if she would like anything: a cup of tea, and a sandwich maybe, before we set off for home. ‘No thanks dear‘, she said, ‘but I’m dying for a fag.’ There was a bench nearby so we sat down and Mrs D, with a relieved sigh, lit up. A short time later the mayor and his wife, plus the chief clerk came out and, seeing we were on the bench, came over to say goodbye again. It was then that Mrs Dickinson, all deference now thrown aside, dropped her bombshell. ‘You’re nice people an’ all, but I bet you’re all bloody conservatives. Mick was a red hot socialist, you know.’ The mayor, taken aback, as were they all, gave a slightly strained smile, but his wife grinned broadly and I could see that she was as amused as us, if not more so. After final goodbyes and handshakes, plus a smiling kiss on both cheeks for Mrs D from the lady mayoress, they finally left.

Mrs Dickinson had had a lovely time - 'my day out with the mayor,' she liked to call it. We planned to go again the following year, but sadly she died that winter. I like to think that she is up there with her uncle Mick having a good laugh about her ‘day out with the mayor‘.

   

[ICM - RAF Retd]

Alex:  A delightful tale!  I know of another version of this Forum's software that has a Like button - and if we had one, I'd certainly have just clicked it.

[charlie962]

26 minutes ago, ICM - RAF Retd said:

I'd certainly have just clicked it.

ditto

[Smith]

What a wonderful read, thank you Alex for posting that.

[Fattyowls]

I'm also liking this a lot; thanks Alex.

 

Pete.