corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 I have locked the first thread as it was difficult to follow, The first part of the thread is on this link I have now consolidated the knowledge on the Mannock Family into a chart below - if you want more information on the protagonists then click to go to this web page which has a clickable version of that chart and that will take you fuller to each person shown below As you can see the interesting thing is that NONE of the Mannock family have traceable Birth Registrations, (except for Jessie and Patrick John, who were in fact both registered as Corringham, not Mannock) The points I would make are 1. There must be mistranscription of whatever surname they were using, but darned if I can get any of them. 2. The Billiards player JP Mannock is probably the Thomas Mannock in the 1871 census. But I cannot prove it 3. There was serious philandering going on. the VCs Grandfather (Michael) , father (Edward) and uncle (John Patrick) all appear to have abandoned their families to start another either consecutively or concurrently 4. The fact that Edward senior was a serial liar on family registration makes cross checking difficult. You can see this if you look up on my links the birth of VCs sister Jessie 5. The VCs own place of birth is pick and mix. Apart from what his parents put in earlier censuses, he himself gave Brighton in 1911 (Census) , but Ballincollig in 1916 (Aviator Cert) 6. What may be an important clue, is that when Edward senior enlists in 1879 as Edward Corringham, he gives his birthplace as Grimsby. I had written that off as more lies, but there may be some truth somewhere, as there are a lot of Corringhams around Grimsby.. I pursed this in some depth, but could not establish a connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Is it just co-incidence that John Patrick and Patrick John both died London in 1932? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 6. What may be an important clue, is that when Edward senior enlists in 1879 as Edward Corringham, he gives his birthplace as Grimsby. I had written that off as more lies, but there may be some truth somewhere, as there are a lot of Corringhams around Grimsby.. I pursed this in some depth, but could not establish a connection. Caistor district (which Grimsby was part of) hasn't any obvious matches for Edward snr that I can see - even using Edward there are only 4-5 birth registrations per month in 1857/1858 period (which to me is much lower than I'd have expected). The Corringham bit could have been picked up from there but he's a man of such invention it's hard to tell - about the only real truth about him is that he was born, had children and died. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 I Suspect Jessie married a Edward Ainge as the BMD records have Births Dec 1919 (>99%)Ainge Patricia M Mannock Bristol 6a 428 Possibly later died as Name: Patricia Mary AingeEvent Type: Death RegistrationRegistration Quarter: Apr-May-JunRegistration Year: 1992Registration District: Hastings & RotherCounty: SussexEvent Place: Hastings & Rother, Sussex, EnglandBirth Date (available after June quarter 1969): 30 Sep 1919 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Bill24chev thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected the error on the chart. My only defence was that I ws getting cross-eyed with the name combinations that were continually changing. Criag. Thanks for the marriage - the great thing on the forum is that someone finds another way of skinning the poor cat. I had tried the 1911 census and failed, never thought of cross checking children born to the pair. I will alter Jessie page accordingly I had, as I said, failed to make the Grimsby connection. My logic was that if a 21 year old Edward Mannock in 1879 could enlist using an "odd" name like Corringham and say he was born in Great Grimsby, then perhaps there was some truth in in I remain frustrated ad confused that there does not seem to be a single GRO entry for any of them back to the grandfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 May be some useful information here?Whitstable Times and Herne Bay Herald - Saturday 25 July 1925 Memorial to Famous Airman VCTablet Unveiled in Canterbury CathedralA remarkable tribute was paid to the memory of Major E Mannock, the airman VC, when a tablet to his memory was unveiled in Canterbury Cathedral on Saturday afternoon. He was the son of humble parents, and after his education at the Military School at Canterbury, he entered the service of the National Telephone Company. In 1913 he went to Turkey and was detained there as a prisoner for some time after the outbreak of the war. On his arrival home he joined his old unit, the RAMC, transferred to the Engineers, and eventually, although nearly blind in one eye, became an officer in the Air Force, and was given a roving commission. In 1917 news came through of the amazing exploits of " Captain X " on the Western Front, but it was not un til after his death that the mystery airman was revealed as Major Mannock. He was killed whilst engaged in an air duel only 200 feet from the German trenches on July 18th, seven years ago. His official record of seventy-five air victories was never equalled by any othe British airman. Among the relatives and personal friends of the deceased airman present at Saturday's ceremony were Mr Patrick John Mannock, his brother, representing Mrs Mannock (who was unable to travel from Birmingham) and the rest of the family, and Mr Wyles, the present headmaster of Penhurst School, at whose wedding the deceased acted as best man, and who is now a Lieutenant on Reserve in the DCLI. Others present included Flight-Lieutenant E B Grenfell, and Flight-Officer L G Nixon, Captain C R Knight " The Buffs " the Mayor of Canterbury (Alderman G Pope) Dr Whitehead Reid. Major G W Harris, Mr C A Gardner, Mr A S Blunt, Alderman Wright Hunt, Alderman G W Dickins, and Councillor C Richardson. Also in attendance were some 60 members under Colonel Willan, DSO, of the 82nd Field Ambulance (the old 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance) representatives of the local Territorials. Lieutenants R W Brown and G W Angel-(representingthe Suffolks, Norfolks, and Cambridgeshire Territorials) etc etc......." There fell in defence of his country, a young citizen of of Canterbury, one of the bravest of those who took their share in the Great War and whose skill and daring brought him fame as the greatest of all British airmen. Major Mannock, from what we know of him would be the last to claim, that in the great service which he rendered his country and the honour which he brought to the RAF, he did anything more than his duty. But to those who knew his worth and watched his career in the war, his courage, skill and his devotion singled him out from amongst his brave companions as one worthy of the highest recognition. His outstandinf skill as an airman brought to him honours which fell to the lot of few, if of any others, in that branch of the services. Not only did he gain the VC, that pre-eminent distinction for valour, but he also gained the DSO on three occasions-twice in one day-and the MC on two occasions. Our city has reason to be proud of this record as it is also remembering that two others of her young men gained the VC..... etc etc....this fitting tribute to his memory and we do so in the prsence of his relations, his old comrades of St. Gregory's Cricket Club, the Church Lads' Brigade, the Home Counties Division of the RAMC, as well as representatives of the RAF, the Buffs, the Cavalry, the City Council, and many who knew him in this city. .etc etcJohn Patrick Mannock (famous billiards player) died at his home in Finchley 28/11/1932 aged 73 Nottingham Evening Post - Tuesday 29 November 1932Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Ballincollig birth records are here - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mturner/cork/ballingcollig_b.htm No sign of Edward. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Mike - thanks. Couldn't find many scraps in those, though one did give his school. Apart form his father being a congenital liar, the other thing that makes this difficult is that you never had to produce "papers" in those days, so could apparently tell officialdom what you wanted Craig.- thanks. I hadn't found the Ballincollig transcriptions - though I know that the local historian has been through the registers in an attempt to prove Edward was "their man" and failed. On the small world vein, I will be close to Ballincollig in a couple of weeks in Macroom for something else) and I will try to track him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 1901 census for Thomas Mannock ? Name: Thomas P MannockEvent Type: CensusEvent Date: 31 Mar 1901Civil Parish: LambethEcclesiastical Parish: St Matthew BrixtonSub-District: BrixtonRegistration District: LambethResidence County: London, MiddlesexGender: MaleAge: 44Relationship to Head of Household: HeadBirthplace: Ireland 1881 census Name: Thomas P MannockAge (Original): 28Gender: MaleBirth Year: 1853Birthplace: IrelandRelationship to Head of Household: HeadMarital Status: MarriedOccupation: Solicitors Managing ClerkAddress: 9 Alexander StreetEvent Place: Horton, Yorkshire (West Riding), EnglandRecord Type: Household Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Craig I looked at him before and discounted him as he is, I think "Thomas Pym Mannock", and there is also a Francis Pym Mannock. Neither of them looks to fit with the VCs extended family. Francis claimed in court, on oath, that he was heir to a baronetcy, and that the war was costing him £ 5000 a year! Mind you he was up for drunkeness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Craig I looked at him before and discounted him as he is, I think "Thomas Pym Mannock", and there is also a Francis Pym Mannock. Neither of them looks to fit with the VCs extended family. Francis claimed in court, on oath, that he was heir to a baronetcy, and that the war was costing him £ 5000 a year! Mind you he was up for drunkeness Oh well - something about the surname Mannock ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Might it be unders Mannox or other in some searches, Mannox appears more common in Ireland? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Mike that's the rub, there are so many variations. The easiest, I have used the wild card as Manno* which covers most of them, and for extra I have used M*nno* , but if you end the search with Mann* it throws up a lot of superfluous Mann etc Mind you the good thing about the name is that you can search the whole of England or Ireland easily without having to specify a county. Other thing I never cracked is some peple for the VC write ups use "CorringhamE" and I have never found such a connection I am fairly certain that they were registered in Ireland or England rather than there being no registration, but what they were registered under, I have no idea. You see from my chart that it not just the VCs generation, but also his father and his grandfathers generations that lack GRO references! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 If it was easy, it wouldn't be half as much fun? No sign of a service record, or a service record on FMP for his father Cpl Royal Scots or 2/Hussars? according to another source can't find now (might give some clues.) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Well nobody else has found the right answer, but we can usually crack these puzzles here FMP do have his father's service records both for his bit as Edward Mannock and as Edward Corringham - click link to records on FMP - I think I have got all I can from them, but you never know I read through the link you put on your post above to "lost Wings". Not sure where they get some of their stuff from. They quote Mannock as saying he found his sister Jessie working as a prostitute in Birmingham in 1917. I find that difficult to believe as I think she married in 1905 to Edward Ainge and had at least one child in 1919 by him Whilst I appreciate nothing is proven either way, the balance of probability is that she was not a prostitute then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 OK, you've obviously studied it in great detail. Good luck, and hope you find the vital clue. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Thanks for your help, Mike I cannot claim to be an expert on Mannock, only started looking at him a few days ago. But the puzzle is interesting. It also indicates to me how many books just take the easiest approach - here for example to say the census, must be correct and quote that, without checking. It is part of culture that quotes, but does not question, sources ! The answer to this on Mannock's birth must exist, and will probably come by accident. We all have particular core specialist knowledge on the forum, for example you have a vast knowledge of where to get articles. Probably somebody out there who can game the censuses better than I to find that family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 The truth will out? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Myth busting is this forums speciality. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 24 January , 2015 Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Try looking into Mitchell Manrick on the 1861 census. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2015 Brilliant IPT I really do not know how you manage it And I thought I had tried all the wild cards, but Manrick !!! I will redo the chart in the morning. I am on a different time zone here. It will be interesting to see what can be spun out of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2015 Share Posted 25 January , 2015 Good job - I though I'd tried everyone as well. Plenty more kids to track down now but the more of them there is the more chance of success. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 25 January , 2015 Share Posted 25 January , 2015 Same family are on FMP as Maurick 5 Gloster Gardens, St Pancras, Pancras, London, England Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 25 January , 2015 Share Posted 25 January , 2015 Been browsing through 'King of Airfighters: The Biography of Major "Mick" Mannock, VC, DSO MC' by Ira Jones (link given in initial thread) and that seems to imply that there was a fifth sibling born while the family was in India. Jones states: Mrs Mannock and her family of four arrived in India six months later. Edward was then between six and seven years of age, and with the other children he commenced his scanty education at the Army school. The family remained in India for nearly six years... According to my reckoning their time in India would have been c1898 - 1904 (not withstanding that one of the four, Helena appeared in the 1901 Irish Census so couldn't have been in India for the full six years, if she went at all) On their return to England, Jones gives: The Elder Mannock (once again a corporal) remained in South Africa until the end of the war, and took part in all the engagements which his famous regiment fought in. His family, now five - two boys and three girls remained in India. When the war was over, corporal Mannock's period of service was nearly completed, so he returned to England, being stationed first at Shorncliffe and later at the Cavalry Depot, Canterbury where his family Joined him. After a few months he was demobilised and he made a home in Military Road ... The online version of the book (first published in 1934, republished 2009) is only a sampler so is incomplete and doesn't, unfortunately, include the acknowledgements listed in the Index which might give some clue as to where the author got his information. I did wonder, as Mannock Senior would have been a serving soldier (also depending on the criteria used for inclusion in these records and just what the family's status & living arrangements were at the time), whether Helena's birth - & also, if factual, that of the third daughter in India - might have been recorded as a British National Army overseas birth, but in a brief search on Corringham, Mannock & some variations thereof, had no luck. NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 25 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 January , 2015 Back on the job, I have updated the family tree with that breakthrough, and it is at the top of the page now. I will add pages for the new children. I am fairly sure "JP Mannock" the billiard player was born "Lucius P Mannock" in 1859 as in the Billiard histories Nigel - The photo of the family believed to be in India that came from the locked thread, I have on this link click - and it shows 4 children. I too had a look for a birth in India, but could not find one. The reference to the photo is here click . I agree with you that the family must have been in India plus or minus a year , 1898 to 1904. Difficult to say the age of the youngest child in the photo, but she looks to be under 5 for a new birth in India, rather than 10 plus which Helena would have been . Given that Edward senior was in South Africa most of that time, and never returned to India, the youngest should have been born 1898 to 1900 The entry in the 1861 census for the family that IPT found is for. I am not sure if his original name was Mitchell and he became Michael, or whether it is a mis-transcription. The surname is anyone's guess, IPTs no doubt better than mine! It looks as if the 1861 census is correct with Michael Mannocks place of birth as being Scotland. The father ties to his marriage cert in Dublin 1817 Jan 7. Born Michael Mannock Baptism Date: 12 Jan 1817 Baptism Place: Saint Andrews Roman Catholic, Dundee, Angus, Scotland Father: John Mannock Mother: Bridget Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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