Mass Grave Inchy en Artois

[Phil Evans]

The church at Inchy-en-Artois did have a churchyard, to the front and left hand side, from what I can see from photos and the aerial I posted above.

From CWGC: INCHY-EN-ARTOIS CHURCHYARD contained the graves of one soldier from the United Kingdom, who died as a prisoner, and 50 German soldiers.

However, there must have been another cemetery as apart from the mass grave we are discussing, I have also found a couple of records of German burials at Inchy, which give references to : Block 2 Grab 97 and Block 7 Grab 386.

Phil

[seaforths]

I have found a batch of POW interviews from men captured in the battle. Unfortunately, I only had time to look at one of them, a Seaforth who was captured and taken to Inchy. There seem to be others but I am only just in from work and have another late shift tomorrow. It may well be Friday that I get a chance to look through them properly and post what I find.

[seaforths]

Tom, this man (6th Seaforth) was also reported missing from 25th according to the WD (even though CWGC gives 27th):

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/564861/STEWART,%20WESTON

Doesn't seem to be a concentration (looking at his paperwork alone) unless it is missing. But the change him from UBS to identified with a headstone, would there not be an exhumation and identification report (which I have seen on other casualties)?

[seaforths]

Further information on Capt. Weston Stewart this time from ICRC - accounts for date discrepancy, I noticed on his death. So, reported missing 25th and died on 27th in German hands. He was also buried in a mass grave. If the cemetery in my previous post was started in September 1918, Capt. Stewart must have been exhumed surely? Possibly concentrated from Beulencourt Churchyard or Beulencourt German Cemetery.

[seaforths]

Hi Brodie and Phil

I've posted on the thread on Weston Stewart but I have also tried to get the information to Tom via his website before he hits the records at Maidenhead, as another example of missing paperwork regarding concentrations of 6th Seaforth from this period. I really do hope that concentration paperwork turns up. It might cloud your issue with John even further. It is likely that they were moved from their respective resting places and hopefully concentration paperwork exists and will show that they were all moved from Inchy to the same place. However, it occurred to me after posting on Weston Stewart, that I have come across men who were buried together at the same location by Germans, that were concentrated across three different cemeteries, after the war. They were all traceable because they all had names and concentration papers but in the case of 'Unknown' men...it is possible that CWGC would use the fact that any lack of concentration record could mean that men were not necessarily concentrated together from a single location, which would go against a case too.

Fingers crossed Tom will come up with something that will show, with some digging around, that men moved from Inchy all went to Anneux and can be accounted for there.

I have a feeling that Lt. Rees (missing on 25th) might also have something on ICRC POW records. I found Maj. Johnston who went missing on 23rd March, in their records but only a card marked with several negativ envoi against several enquiries against him. Rees is proving problematic, I can't even find the name Rees at the moment, let alone a 6th Seaforth Lieutenant of that name. I thought Rees might have been a fairly common name.

Phil, you do far more burial stuff than I do, any thoughts on the above regarding concentrations from one location to more than one final location? I know above in the example, I have said from one to three locations but one of the three was a single man and a flukey accident. The others were split across two locations and no idea why. Also, Weston's case from CWGC does evidence and reinforce your theory of the use of kirk-yard cemeteries for burial by the Germans in addition to starting new ones.

[brodie]

Thanks Seaforth - I think the fact that men from the same grave were not necessarily concentrated in the same final resting place definitely clouds the issue. We really need that paper work.

The one bit of light on the horizon that I can see, is that the general blurb about Anneux Cemetery gives names of a couple places from which men were concentrated - for them to have that information, there must have been concentration reports or something similar when the information was put online. But there are no concentration reports at all against any of the men in Anneux. So are they just not online yet? Or are they now lost? Hopefully Tom can find out.

Seaforth - where did you find the interview with the Seaforth who was taken to Inchy? I would really like to read it in full.

[seaforths]

File size is big I will pass by other means. I was going through a whole wad of them last night making quick notes. The thing that was bothering me about John, was that he seemed to have been taken quite a distance - and why? I am glad to have found Weston Stewart because if you look, he seemed to have been taken equally as far south-west as John was north-east. I will try to locate and get through more of them tonight.

I also want to look at the Field Ambulance diares again, there was a map in one of them showing our ADS, which were of course captured. This would have been an absolute boon to the Germans. Their last throw of the dice but were desperately short of equipment and supplies, using paper bandages and shrouds etc. They didn't re-invent the wheel, they just changed the sign on the door. The accounts I am reading through, almost all of them say the men were stripped of their field dressings and respirators. The norm, if the Brits had to abandon a medical facility with patients and staff or, if it was captured, was to leave them with adequate supplies. I have various reports of the prisoners being made to take German wounded to Dressing Stations my guess at the moment is that it might show they were taken the German wounded to the locations that were previously our Dressing Stations, so they would get better treatment. Unfortunately, in the accounts they are not naming locations precisely in many cases but enough information for me to possibly work it out on a map. Also, these places would have filled up very quickly with wounded from their date of capture on 21st possibly forcing the wounded to be taken further afield. Obviously, I'm hoping for another Inchy reference or one that is strong enough to tie in with Inchy.

Going through the reports is going to be time consuming they seem to be running chronologically sort of...in batches so I got through a batch of spring 1918 then hit a batch of men captured in 1915, then trying to locate another batch of 1918...Unfortunately, these are punctuated with lists of reports not printed which is also frustrating. In amongst all of this, I need to contact TNA. I'm working from their index of the lists which are in 8 batches and I have known for a while that one of these is missing and another replicated in its place and at times like this, it becomes impossible to work with, I should have done it sooner. The index is lists of named men and named locations amongst other things and then shows the report number relevant to the particular man/location/other. I had to go through the index checking the locations for any mention of 'Inchy'. I had to go through them again to look at the information contained under 'medical' to see if there was any mention of Inchy. But with a section of the index missing, I'm not getting the full information and it will also affect other personal research I have/am doing - which I can easily go back over but for this, important enough to force me to contact them now.

Sorry if this is frustrating for you but as I said, time consuming and I would rather get it right. Right now, I've some domestic engineering that requires my attention, before I can do any more WW1 tonight!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Further information on Capt. Weston Stewart this time from ICRC -

His grave registration report is very intriguing, but is by no means the weirdest I have ever seen. Some years ago, when another issue was being discussed, I was shown some registration and exhumation forms which included a man who was exhumed as an unnamed Australian soldier, moved and reburied as an named Australian soldier with a temporary cross, and then had a permanent headstone erected showing "A Soldier Of The Great War" (no ref to Australian). Nothing in the paperwork relating to that man gave the slightest clue as to how three different "identities" could have been attributed to him, - in fact that was the reason why I was shown the papers; to illustrate that the recording of some cases was so oblique and convoluted as to make it impossible to state categorically who might be in a particular grave - even to the extent of what nationality they were. (Nb - I am not aware of the name at one time attributed to the man just spoken of).

Ref your comment in post #3 > "I am not totally convinced that CWGC have digitised all the documentation they have on each individual and whether they intend to do so at a later date." - I have again raised that with the Commission and have had a preliminary reply. That will be discussed in more detail next week, and I'll get back to you. I have already passed through details of Duncan, Johnston, McQuattie, and Thomson, so they are aware of those specific cases by way of example, and I'll now send through Weston Stewart so they are forewarned about him.

Going all the way back to post #1, and the point of this exercise, I have to tell you that as things stand I am not at all confident that Brodie is going to get to the place where Brodie wants to be. Wait and see if the Commission have anything more, but in any case I'd still hold back a while with regards to making a claim. I'm also wondering, - and this is just an odd sideways thought - whether a strong enough case might be made to have the headstone changed to a "Believed To Be" type rather than a full-blown "identified" inscription. There is at least one fairly recent WW2 near-precedent for that.

Tom

[seaforths]

His grave registration report is very intriguing, but is by no means the weirdest I have ever seen. Some years ago, when another issue was being discussed, I was shown some registration and exhumation forms which included a man who was exhumed as an unnamed Australian soldier, moved and reburied as an named Australian soldier with a temporary cross, and then had a permanent headstone erected showing "A Soldier Of The Great War" (no ref to Australian). Nothing in the paperwork relating to that man gave the slightest clue as to how three different "identities" could have been attributed to him, - in fact that was the reason why I was shown the papers; to illustrate that the recording of some cases was so oblique and convoluted as to make it impossible to state categorically who might be in a particular grave - even to the extent of what nationality they were. (Nb - I am not aware of the name at one time attributed to the man just spoken of).

Ref your comment in post #3 > "I am not totally convinced that CWGC have digitised all the documentation they have on each individual and whether they intend to do so at a later date." - I have again raised that with the Commission and have had a preliminary reply. That will be discussed in more detail next week, and I'll get back to you. I have already passed through details of Duncan, Johnston, McQuattie, and Thomson, so they are aware of those specific cases by way of example, and I'll now send through Weston Stewart so they are forewarned about him.

Going all the way back to post #1, and the point of this exercise, I have to tell you that as things stand I am not at all confident that Brodie is going to get to the place where Brodie wants to be. Wait and see if the Commission have anything more, but in any case I'd still hold back a while with regards to making a claim. I'm also wondering, - and this is just an odd sideways thought - whether a strong enough case might be made to have the headstone changed to a "Believed To Be" type rather than a full-blown "identified" inscription. There is at least one fairly recent WW2 near-precedent for that.

Tom

Many thanks Tom, the update is much appreciated.

And an here's an update on Weston Stewart. He was not the only 6th Seaforth captured on 25th and concentrated into Beaulencourt. If you look at Capt. Stewart's grave registration sheet:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/564861/STEWART,%20WESTON

you can see two other men; CSM Robertson 6th Seaforth and Pte. (Acting Sgt.) McLaren 7th Gordon.

CSM Robertson was also concentrated there and like Weston Stewart, has no concentration paperwork.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/564831/ROBERTSON,%20J

However, Archibald McLaren 1/7 Gordon Hrs. was also concentrated and does have concentration paperwork.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/564732/McLAREN,%20ARCHIBALD%20SANDERSON

What is intriguing now, is that on McLaren's concentration sheet is an Unknown Sgt. Major (crown on sleeve) and unknown Captain (pips on sleeve) these entries could well be related to CSM Robertson and Capt. Stewart. What is also interesting which Phil picked up on (while I was using a postage stamp screen) is the pencil notation on Stewart's paperwork that says 'biography in archives'. I am wondering if the families were pressurising for positive identifications just after the war. I may be missing something here but I can't make a positive link to a direct and positive identification here (crown and pips), assuming the concentration sheet of McLaren is including the other two. If that is correct then based on that, these two seem to have been given a grave that might be inscribed as 'Believed to Be' (even that is not clear to me). Based on that, if concentration paperwork emerges for Inchy that shows a single unknown Sergeant that has not been identified, with possibly stripes on sleeve it would add some weight to Brodie's other evidence and achieving a positive inscription for Sgt. MacKenzie of, as you say at the very least, 'Believed to Be'.

Appreciate a more expert opinion on what I have posted above:

Am I correct in thinking this concentration sheet from Pte. McLaren is also the sheet for CSM Robertson and Capt. Weston?

Would the archives at Maidenhead hold a biography for Capt. Weston?

I'm frustrated at the moment jumping from site to site because I cannot download from CWGC (probably a conflict with the version of internet explorer I am running with).

Thanks

[Phil Evans]

Marjorie,

It doesn't matter that Stewart doesn't have the document attached to his entry - you have the full Concentration Report for Plot 1, Row D Graves 1-10 (from the North German Cemetery).

Stewart's identification was at some later date.

If you want any CWGC documents downloaded, send me a list

Phil

Edit: Grave numbers added

Edited 31 January , 2015 by Phil Evans

[seaforths]

Marjorie,

It doesn't matter that Stewart doesn't have the document attached to his entry - you have the full Concentration Report for Plot 1, Row D Graves 1-10 (from the North German Cemetery).

Stewart's identification was at some later date.

If you want any CWGC documents downloaded, send me a list

Phil

Edit: Grave numbers added

Thanks Phil, I thought that was it but nevertheless still struggling to get my head around it and Robertson must also have been identified later. Thanks for the offer on the CWGC. I'll muddle through until they sort it out. It has happened before. I get frustrated by the updates, I used to be able to choose what I could update or defer. Now, I don't seem to get the choice. Need to look at the settings.

Sorry I'm on the tiddly screen again but I used one Alexander Begg as a hook into more prisoners. It just seems odd that so far, I haven't come across statements from those wounded. However, I havent got through them by any means but as a kind of short-cut to the wounded, who often comment on where/when they were treated from capture, I used Begg (I'm sure that man, like Fraser has passed before my camera lens at some point - or I could just be too familiar with some names - who knows). I know Begg died at Stargard Laz. and guessed it was probably related to wounds received when he was captured. His cards led me to a bunch of wounded some of whom are Seaforth dotted with a few Gordon. Falling from PA 24909 onwards and under Parchim - Begg is among them.

I can't make a list of them. I'm struggling to read most of their names let alone anything else. The screen on this thing might do the zoom but my eyes don't, all it does is make it fuzzier on this screen. Also a Gloucesters man in there who has a very precise place of capture 'Velu'. If anyone has time/inclination to give me a list of names worth chasing up to work with, I'd much appreciate the help. I'll not get onto a proper screen until much later.

You don't need a name, just stick in any old name into ICRC and tap/click on the red bar of the first card that comes up and type in the PA number of 24909. Otherwise, it'll have to wait till I can get to it myself later on.

[Phil Evans]

Marjorie,

Seaforths and Gordons from PA 24909 to 24914 emailed to you.

Phil

[seaforths]

Marjorie,

Seaforths and Gordons from PA 24909 to 24914 emailed to you.

Phil

Thanks Phil, truly sorry about the typing, I forget sometimes.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... pencil notation on Stewart's paperwork that says 'biography in archives'.

Seaforth - I have emailed an additional query regarding Steward to the Commission, including this reference to a biography being in the archives. Will see what they might be able to come up with later this week. (At which point I'll draw a line under the current list of queries because I do have a stack of my own to get through as well when I'm there).

Tom

[seaforths]

Many thanks again Tom.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... The one bit of light on the horizon that I can see, is that the general blurb about Anneux Cemetery gives names of a couple places from which men were concentrated - for them to have that information, there must have been concentration reports or something similar when the information was put online. But there are no concentration reports at all against any of the men in Anneux. So are they just not online yet? Or are they now lost?

Brodie - I'm afraid that enquiries at Maidenhead haven't moved this forward. There are two sets of records which aren't available online; firstly the individual "cemetery files" which, as the name implies, are files relating to individual cemeteries. For some observations on Anneux see here.

Secondly there are the "E Files". These are files relating to individual casualties where at some time or another correspondence / enquiries have been raised. The proportion of these files relative to the total numbers of casualties is very small, probably in % terms a very very low single figure. There are no E Files for Duncan, Johnston, McQuattie, Thomson or Weston Stewart.

A check was made on the internal computer database to see if there was maybe some "error" in any linked exhumation records for Anneux, - none was found.

Sorry but that means there is no obvious solution for your conundrum.

Tom

[seaforths]

Oh dear. Not good news. Thank you Tom, for all your efforts. I was looking at Beaulencourt again last night night and found further exhumation reports from St.Nicholas into there. I suppose there could be a slim chance the stuff for Inchy and some men has been mis-filed.

[brodie]

Very disappointing Tom, but not unexpected. Thank you so much for your time and effort. As you say Seaforths, there is still a faint chance of misfiling. I'm going to keep digging, although it's looking like my only real chance would be digging with a spade followed by DNA testing !!!!

[brodie]

The church at Inchy-en-Artois did have a churchyard, to the front and left hand side, from what I can see from photos and the aerial I posted above.

From CWGC: INCHY-EN-ARTOIS CHURCHYARD contained the graves of one soldier from the United Kingdom, who died as a prisoner, and 50 German soldiers.

However, there must have been another cemetery as apart from the mass grave we are discussing, I have also found a couple of records of German burials at Inchy, which give references to : Block 2 Grab 97 and Block 7 Grab 386.

Phil

Phil - Could you tell me where you found those references to German burials at Inchy? I'd like to do a bit more hunting around that. Thanks.

[Phil Evans]

Hello Brodie,

I received your PM.

There is not much information, other than a grave number. I have found three now by searching "Soldatenfriedhof, Inchy en Artois"

They are here, here and here. It may come up with a nag screen to print the entry - just cancel it.

It is a shame that the Burial Reports for the entire cemetery have been lost.

Phil

[Phil Evans]

Brodie,

I have now found two men who were originally buried at Inchy-en-Artois.

The easy one to find was Harry Redmond Wambolt

I haven't found any ICRC documents for him, so far, but he does have an RAF casualty card, although it is not very informative.

Less easy (250 odd casualty reports later) was Fred White.

He has an ICRC enquiry card, but no further info.

I have a few thoughts, but they are purely speculative.

Phil

[seaforths]

Brodie,

I have now found two men who were originally buried at Inchy-en-Artois.

The easy one to find was Harry Redmond Wambolt

I haven't found any ICRC documents for him, so far, but he does have an RAF casualty card, although it is not very informative.

Less easy (250 odd casualty reports later) was Fred White.

He has an ICRC enquiry card, but no further info.

I have a few thoughts, but they are purely speculative.

Phil

You're having more success than I am! It does bear out a thought I'd had much earlier that they could and did concentrate from one single location out to a number of different locations. However, in this instance, if it was a mass grave, I would have thought the men in it would be sent to a single location. I will have to go back and look at some other research I did - that involved mass graves being relocated.

I have managed through the POWs to hook into a couple of lengthy totenlists for burials of wounded and gefallen from this period. These are all men that died at the front and buried in Friedhof etc. in France but it is showing that they did make an effort to move some of them down the evacuation route as some were being buried in Le Cateau and a few as far back as Mons. Not found any Inchy yet but I've still a lot to get through and my internet has a touch of the Grand Old Duke of York (again) today/tonight. These must have been all brought in alive or clinging to life. POW reports vary between the treatment the British were getting. Sadly, those that died - I suspect a large number of them lay where they fell for some time. They had POWs bury them later, a comment from one prisoner that they were still laid out, stripped and unburied. The Germans were so badly off for kit they seemed to prey on the living and the dead like locusts. No wonder there are so many 'unknowns'.

I'll finish plodding through the totenlist before I look at the previous research. As an aside, I figured out which one of the officers had been under my camera lens in the past, It was Major Willie Doig, 6th Seaforth. I found I've about 30 plus photos he took while he was a POW in captivity. I knew he had been captured in March, even though he doesn't appear on any of the WD lists. Shocking that they would lose a Major and not report him but that's the 6th Bn. for you.

[seaforths]

Wambolt ICRC: PA 13962. British Cas List shows him missing 15th March 1917 and another one shows him as 'Prevously missing now unofficially reported killed' dated 15th June 1917.

[Phil Evans]

I looked straight through that one, taking R N as the initials.

Phil

[seaforths]

I found him in the aviators magazine thingy wossit (can never remember it's name) archive casualty lists before searching him out on ICRC. That's where I find most of my stuff on the magnificent men in their flying machines! It can even tell you about the poisoned sweeties the Germans dropped over the British lines, full of cholera bacteria - not very sporting of them but an example of early biological warfare.