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CAMERON HIGHLANDERS - EAST LONDON DRAFT 1914?


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Would any avid Highlander assist,please. I have a local casualty here in Wanstead, East London, a 1914 volunteer Ralph Edwards, from Leytonstone/Wanstead. But I notice there are several records for men from Leyton, Leytonstone, Wanstead, Walthamstow for the Cameron Highlanders.

Edwards had no discernible family link with Scotland- unlike the steady flow of recruits into the London Scottish,where the links can be established for all of the casualties I have researched.

All the East London Camerons have 4 figure service numbers around the early 2000+ Army Service Numbers website does not give an answer.

It looks likely that some sort of chance to volunteer/draft for the Camerons in 1914 did occur.

Any ideas out there?

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Regiments in sparsely populated recruiting districts in the pre-war period were allowed to recruit in some of the high-density towns and cities. After Kitchener's call it became a race to build battalions to establishment. The Highland regiments and rural Irish regiments as well as the English regiments in rural East Anglia had a challenging time to match the flood of men from the urban areas. The Weekly Army Returns provide some evidence that 'rural' Regiments struggled, despite the popular belief that the Army was swamped with recruits. It was, but there was a huge assymetry between the recruiting districts' population bases and the response of the population. City based Regiments were awash, while rural Regimnets generally struggled - for a host of rather complex reasons. Population density was a limit factor and continued to be throughout the war.

Despite this, the weekly returns for 29th Aug, 5th Sep and 12th Sep 1914 show the Cameron Highlanders were consistently above the Line Infantry Regiments' averages for recruiting post Kitchener's call. By 12th Sep, barely a month after Kitchener's call the 5th (Service) Bn Cameron Highlanders (K1) had 15.6% more recruits than the average line infantry K1 balttalion (80 battalions) and the 6th (Service) Bn Cameron Highlanders had 51.3% more recruits than the average K2 infantry battalion (also 80 battalions). Combined, K1 and K2, they had 32.3% more recruits than the average K1 and K2 infantry unit. For one of the most sparsely populated recruiting areas this was astonishing.

Among the eighty K1 battalions on 29th Aug 1914 the 5th Bn was the thirteenth best recruited battalion and among the eighty K2 battalions the 6th Bn was the second best recruited battalion. Interestingly the 6th Bn Cameron Highlanders were only surpassed by the 7th Bn KOSB - ironically another Regiment in a sparsely populated area. Anecdotally we know that the response in Scotland were slightly stronger than the rest of the country, however given the sparse population bases it raises questions. Was life so miserable for men in the Cameron Highlanders recruiting grounds that they ran to the colours in such disproportionately high numbers ...or, similar to other rural areas was the response simply limited by low population density and recruiting had to be boosted by imports from other areas?

Evidence from the other areas suggests that the decisions to draw men from high population areas to fill gaps in low population areas happened weeks later - we have strong evidence from the Irish Regiments in particular and the 10th (Irish) Div, as well as the 12 (Eastern) Div where agriiculture and the harvest impacted recruiting. We also have evidence that many Londoners (an area flush with surplus recruits) sent men off to 'rural' Regiments such as the DCLI during this period. The evidence is in the CWGC data immediately after the slaughters of Gallipoli (10th, 11th and 13th Divs of K1) and Loos (9th, 12th and 14th Divs of K1 and 15th-20th Divs). It is easier to spot the nationality differences i.e Englishmen in Scots battalions or Irish battalions. Later on as manpower became more fluid we can see hard evidence of large cohorts of Yorkshiremen (for example) appearing in rural Irish battalion casualty data, all within tight Army Number groupings belying block transfers.

I have not researched the Cameron Highlanders in detail, but there is a mass of evidence elsewhere that rural Regiments needed men from the cities to fill their numbers both during early recruiting and throughout the War. The only caveat I can see here is that the Cameron Highlanders' K1 and K2 battalions were full to the brim quite early on suggesting either access to urban populations (a distinct possibility) or early transfers due to the early realisation that recruiting would be challenging. Personally I don't believe the sparse population could have generated 51% more recruits for the 6th Bn than the average of 80 K2 battalions. It would be an extra-ordinary out-lier in the data and so unlikely as to be nearly impossible.

It will be interesting to look at casualty data for the 5th and 6th Battalions to see the proportion of Englishmen. I have the data and may well revert if time permits.

,

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Thank you for your speedy and very informative response. And next time I will spell CAMERON correctly !! Your info. makes perfect sense against my slight records which are primarily concerned with the casualties of a small suburban location. But I would like to get the background to them into focus. Alas, WGC search by regiment doesnt seem to be working at the moment- bit of a nuisance. That there was a nub of recruits to the Camerons from Whipps Cross/ Stratford/Walthamstow recruit offices in 1914 seems highly likely. But,of course, beyond that has to be the questions posed within your response- what was the rationale for such allocations? Why did drafts from one urban area go to a particular out-of-area unit? Was it ad hoc or is there some central directing hand (and,hopefully,records) about it? What I cant see across GWF is a lot about why K1 and K2 allocations were made to particular units. For Wanstead, much is obvious- City/County of London battalions, HAC for the middle classes, London Scottish for those with Scottish connections. But then there are the oddballs- mostly iderntifiable as having some family link with an out-of-area regiment.

I have also a casulaty killed serving with London Irish on Christmas Eve 1915- a botched sapping operation at the Hohenzollern Redoubt, rather smoothly glossed over in the unit War Diary. Again, another one of the casualties from a German counter-sap was a local lad- service number only 2 away from the lad from Wanstead- William Lakeman-and still under-age at his death. Now I can hazard a guess what has happened with this man and his (probable) local friend- I suspect that in August 1914, some recruiting sergeants and depots were actually puncillious in turning away under age volunteers. But London Irish casualties suggest they took in a fair few under age lads in 1914 from all over London. Done with a nod and wink from a lcoal recruiting sergeant- perhaps,perhaps not.

I would be very interested in what the army internal documents are-that survive- for the allocation of volunteers to particular units- territorial is just so obvious- artillery would seem much the same as it was in WW2 according to my late Dad- those sent to RFA and RGA were probably used to heavy work, particularly outdoor-and,lets be blunt, the thickies.

Even across the relatively small sample from wanstead-some 360- your research work comes out as strongly correct. It seems obvious for London Irish through the war- no conscription in the south meant units had to be made up from elsewhere-and,of course, the overall figures for the war give the false assumption that recruting was uniform and the rush to the colours was the same across the kingdoms. One curiosity that trying to isolate Camerons threw up is that there seems to be a smilar little knot of casualties from the same area for the Cameronians- though its hard to imnagine that a Glasgow- sourced regiment would have difficulties recruitng in its home area. Similarly, 3 Seaforths seem to have sojourned in East Anglia -perhaps to train up recruits from the region for psting to Highland regiments????

Lets see if anyone else can chip in a unit or 2 that was sent a 1914 draft from London. Yes, its hard to believe it -in spite of what Dad used to say about the British army in WW2 (-mostly BBB) that the army of 1914 actually had a rational, organized, coherent and efficient system for building up the New Armies and reinforcing the existing Regular and Territorial units. Can it be that K1 and K2 were actullay comparative triumphs of efficiency???

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This is actually quite a straightforward one!

The Territorial Force Highland Division (later 51st Div) moved to Bedford in mid-August 1914 and needed significant recruits to bring them up to war establishment. Recruiting officers of the various infantry battalions of the division set up in an old shop in London and recruited some 1200 men who were waiting to join the 2/14th London Regiment (London Scottish). The 4th Cameron Highlanders, the TF battalion for Inverness-shire and Nairnshire received some 250 men, enlisted between 4-9 September 1914 by Lieutenants Ian and William Mackay.

The volunteers from the London Scottish seemed to have attempted to join that battalion for prestige - it was one of the most illustrious in the TF and certainly prior to the war recruits had to pay a pound to enlist. Certainly 75% of the 350 recruits worked as clerks.

Private 2086 Ralph Edwards was born in 1888 in London and lived in 1911 at 8 Eatington Road, Leyton. He worked as a shipping clerk before the war. He was killed in action on 9 March 1915 the day before the Battle of Neuve Chapelle commenced.

If you need any more information just let me know

All the best

Patrick

If you need any

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Actually, I wrote the book myself! Steel & Tartan: the 4th Cameron Highlanders in the Great War by Patrick Watt. Available online and in all good bookshops!!

Patrick

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Patrick- your modesty is commendable but misplaced. A good book is a good book- I should know,Im an antiquarian bookseller when Im up and going full strength.

I may tackle you in due course with a couple of other Highland queries. But I shall also keep a lookout locally for Highland regiments in the records and push them onto you.

Ilford, which is now a world-class dump, was a prosperous outer London new town at the beginning of the war. It also had a very strong Ilford Scotiish Society

- whose records ( a car boot of stuff ) were given to the local library a year or so back- so I hope to have something of interest for you in due course.

best wishes

Mike T.

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...1914 volunteer Ralph Edwards,

Ralph Edwards' headstone at Rue-du-Baquerot No 1 Military Cemetery >

post-108-0-55073500-1421096754_thumb.jpg

Though the entrance gate into the left hand plot, keep left and stop at the third small tree, and the headstone is immediately to your right.

post-108-0-90094800-1421096795_thumb.jpg

I had the pleasure and privilege of knowing one of the London 1/4th QOCH men during his latter years - the younger of the two Davey brothers who enlisted in the battalion.

Tom

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Thank you for the photograph- It adds humanity when zapping names to do a roll of honour- at times, its like processing parking tickets, so materials which bring back the person, rather than their impersonal personnel data is always welcome. To me, the war reminas alive and human due to an English homework at the country grammar school I went to in Devonshire. -Interview and write up the story of someone over 70- so I inteviewed a nice old chap across the road, born 1890. Served Royal Artillery during the war but what makes it remain live is that he had to have a fresh bandage for a leg wound every day,as a shrapnel wound on the Somme would not heal. He also had a large dent, the size and depth of a crown coin in his left wrist- hit by another piece opf shrapnel on the Somme-all he said of it was that he had burnt his fingers picking it out!!

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  • 11 months later...

Many thanks for clearing up the mystery of the London recruitment for the 4th Camerons! One of the men I am researching, 2041 Corporal George Anderson, was a Civil Service clerk with the Board of Education. A Boer War veteran of the City of London Imperial Volunteers, his dad was Scottish and this thread explains how he ended up with the Camerons rather than the London Scottish or one of the other London county regiments. He died in March 1915, less than a month after reaching France. Pat (or anyone else), would you happen to know the date he joined? I know it will probably be September but a precise day is always good detail for the story.

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Actually, I wrote the book myself! Steel & Tartan: the 4th Cameron Highlanders in the Great War by Patrick Watt. Available online and in all good bookshops!!

Patrick

And a very very good book it is :thumbsup:

Gary

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In case it helps anyone else looking to establish an attestation date for a London-enlisted Cameron Highlander where the service records are missing, I have found the following dates for 4th CH service numbers where the service records have survived:

2011 Christopher Newton Temple 6th September 1914

2015 Percy Price Cameron 6th

2016 Alfred Perry 6th

2017 Sydney Parker 6th

2024 Charles Smith 6th

2044 Harold Percy Tozar 11th

2053 George Abbot Whiter 9th

2055 Alexander Stewart Marson Hill 9th

Assuming Tozar is an outlier (I'm not sure how that would work - would men have have talked with a recruiting officer, been provisionally assigned a service number and then had the opportunity to think it over for a couple of days before signing? I would have guessed it was just an error with the date on the attestation form but the medical is dated the same day), that must put my man Anderson somewhere around the 7th/8th.

PS I mistranscribed my own notes - he died in May 1915, at Festubert, not March as stated earlier.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi there

Unfortunately, there is no real way of narrowing down the date of enlistment for Pte Anderson. If you look at the dates of enlistment for the wider group of 'London Scots' - those with service numbers from approximately 1977-2222 there is a group from c.2175-2200 who enlisted on 7 September and come after groups from 8, 9, 10, and 11 September. All I can say with certainty is that it was some point between 6-13 when the Mackay brothers were recruiting there. Lindsay's history of the London Scottish may have a more definitive history but I can't recall offhand.

All the best

Patrick

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And a very very good book it is :thumbsup:

Gary

Many thanks, Gary! I had a piece in History Scotland in 2013 about the Highland Division in Bedford which was a more general work on the wider Scottish TF battalions training. Richard Galley (Piper) provided some fantastic photos for it!

Cheers

Patrick

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  • 1 year later...

Hate to bring up an old and buried topic, but can someone enlighten me as to the appropriate avenue to reach the sources on the percentages of recruits flowing into the Kitchener battalions cited above? Would love to be able to cite that information on my developing work with the 5th, 6th, and 7th Camerons recruiting in the Central Belt of Scotland. Especially looking for the The Weekly Army Returns mentioned.

 

Thanks, 

James

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On 11/04/2017 at 08:50, AmericanTommy said:

Hate to bring up an old and buried topic, but can someone enlighten me as to the appropriate avenue to reach the sources on the percentages of recruits flowing into the Kitchener battalions cited above? Would love to be able to cite that information on my developing work with the 5th, 6th, and 7th Camerons recruiting in the Central Belt of Scotland. Especially looking for the The Weekly Army Returns mentioned.

 

Thanks, 

James

 

National Archives WO 114/25 Weekly Returns (including Kitchener's Army)

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Excellent thank you so much! I'd seen it mentioned before but never the correct WO #!

 

James

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The WO 114 will simply show you the ebb and flow of recruits etc. I have transcribed a lot of the data and the initial data for K1 if you are remotely interested. There are at least two threads with the related research on this forum. 

 

Your lot got mangled at Loos I believe. My sense is that K1 and k2 were barely trained, poorly led and suffered accordingly, in Gallipoli and Loos. The end results were almost identical and yet their pitiful sacrifice due to inadequate training has been repositioned as some hero-romantic 'triumph'. The idea that massive casulaties equates to some bizarre idea of success permates many histories steepe in the rather imaginative hero-romantic school. 15th Div is still awaiting an author who can properly articulate the gross failings of K2 and trace these back to the War Office. One whole year of training and near annihilation. It raises questions that have not been properly answered. It is little wonder that the Scots have a distorted view of 1915. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, QGE said:

The WO 114 will simply show you the ebb and flow of recruits etc. I have transcribed a lot of the data and the initial data for K1 if you are remotely interested. There are at least two threads with the related research on this forum. 

 

Your lot got mangled at Loos I believe. My sense is that K1 and k2 were barely trained, poorly led and suffered accordingly, in Gallipoli and Loos. The end results were almost identical and yet their pitiful sacrifice due to inadequate training has been repositioned as some hero-romantic 'triumph'. The idea that massive casulaties equates to some bizarre idea of success permates many histories steepe in the rather imaginative hero-romantic school. 15th Div is still awaiting an author who can properly articulate the gross failings of K2 and trace these back to the War Office. One whole year of training and near annihilation. It raises questions that have not been properly answered. It is little wonder that the Scots have a distorted view of 1915. 

 

 

That is exactly what I am attempting to do! I am currently doing my MA with a focus on the 6th Camerons, hoping to expand into a PhD for the 15th Division. My train of thought for the 6th especially as it's particularly interesting in it's original social makeup, is to chart the original cadre through Loos, and showing the change socially, and more importantly military occurring. The whole 15th Division is particularly interesting in the way they view most of their battles as successes despite the heavy casualties. Looking at the 6th QOCH at Arras for the centenary over the past few days has hit some interesting topics, including their semi successful assault on Monchy. I'd argue that despite the attention applied to the Highland Division, after their heavy bloodying and reorganizing after Loos, the 15th has one of the more successful battle records of British divisions on the Western Front. They do however have a rather bad knack for breaking through and getting stuck unsupported. The 6th will deal with almost being cut off again at 3rd Ypres when the Lancashire Division on their left falls back. A constant theme in the divisional and all battalion histories of the 15th is the failure of supporting 'English' Divisions. I must admit my original attachment to the 6th came as a Glasgow University student reading up on B Coy being formed of students and staff, but there is so much more to it. 

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10 hours ago, AmericanTommy said:

That is exactly what I am attempting to do! I am currently doing my MA with a focus on the 6th Camerons, hoping to expand into a PhD for the 15th Division. My train of thought for the 6th especially as it's particularly interesting in it's original social makeup, is to chart the original cadre through Loos, and showing the change socially, and more importantly military occurring. The whole 15th Division is particularly interesting in the way they view most of their battles as successes despite the heavy casualties. Looking at the 6th QOCH at Arras for the centenary over the past few days has hit some interesting topics, including their semi successful assault on Monchy. I'd argue that despite the attention applied to the Highland Division, after their heavy bloodying and reorganizing after Loos, the 15th has one of the more successful battle records of British divisions on the Western Front. How does one even start to measure this?  They do however have a rather bad knack for breaking through and getting stuck unsupported. The 6th will deal with almost being cut off again at 3rd Ypres when the Lancashire Division on their left falls back. A constant theme in the divisional and all battalion histories of the 15th is the failure of supporting 'English' Divisions. I must admit my original attachment to the 6th came as a Glasgow University student reading up on B Coy being formed of students and staff, but there is so much more to it. 

 

My comments in blue.

 

I have attempted to trace the fates of every Officer who fought with the 9th Div and 15th Div at Loos and compare these to the 51st and 52nd Divs. There are some blind spots (missing diaries, poor diaries, poor record keeping etc or poor published histories) but it was possible to reassemble most of the data. You might want to look at the KOSB data for one of the most tragic episodes. 

 

I have transcribed the 1914-15 Star data for every Scottish Regiment. A summary is below. Still work in progress.

 

 

Scot Div Offrs.jpg

 

Edited by Guest
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For my MA argument I'll be taking Mitchell's argument on the 32nd Division, Boff's on the 3rd Army in 1918, and French's on the 51st Division, and using social and military history arguments they put forward to chart a battalion vs larger formations. It is very much a WIP.

 

Amazing stats by the way, I am currently building folders on each one of the 6th's officers. 

 

James.

Edited by AmericanTommy
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On 4/11/2017 at 01:04, AmericanTommy said:

That is exactly what I am attempting to do! I am currently doing my MA with a focus on the 6th Camerons, hoping to expand into a PhD for the 15th Division. My train of thought for the 6th especially as it's particularly interesting in it's original social makeup, is to chart the original cadre through Loos, and showing the change socially, and more importantly military occurring. The whole 15th Division is particularly interesting in the way they view most of their battles as successes despite the heavy casualties. Looking at the 6th QOCH at Arras for the centenary over the past few days has hit some interesting topics, including their semi successful assault on Monchy. I'd argue that despite the attention applied to the Highland Division, after their heavy bloodying and reorganizing after Loos, the 15th has one of the more successful battle records of British divisions on the Western Front. They do however have a rather bad knack for breaking through and getting stuck unsupported. The 6th will deal with almost being cut off again at 3rd Ypres when the Lancashire Division on their left falls back. A constant theme in the divisional and all battalion histories of the 15th is the failure of supporting 'English' Divisions. I must admit my original attachment to the 6th came as a Glasgow University student reading up on B Coy being formed of students and staff, but there is so much more to it. 

I was very interested to note your mention of 6 Camerons' attack early on the morning of 11th April, 1917.  I read it about half an hour after I had sent a note out to a number of members of my extended family regarding the centenary of this event.  My interest is related to one of the 6th's junior officers who participated in the attack and was awarded the M.C. as a result.  He was 2nd Lt. Henry (Harry) Grindall.  He came from Castle Douglas originally but had been working in a bank in London before he joined the H.A.C. as a private soldier.  He is mentioned by name, along with Lts. Hay and Hislop, in the Battalion War History account of the 'attack' on Monchy.

 

Harry Grindall was my Great Uncle on my Mother's side of the family.  He survived the war and you will all have seen him in action - not in the war, but at the London Olympics after the Second World War.  There is a piece of film frequently shown where he starts one of the races with a pistol.  I don't think that it was his Webley from his army days!

 

In looking at the various comments on the Camerons, I noticed mention of the Regiment recruiting in the Central Belt of Scotland.  This may answer another issue which has puzzled me for a long time.  Another Great Uncle, this time on my father's side, also served with the Camerons.  He came from Kilmarnock and joined up in September, 1914.  I could not understand why he didn't join the R.S.F., as did many from Kilmarnock.  I would be very interested to hear if the Cameron Recruiting Sergeants ever visited Killie!

Private George Haywood must have made a decent impression as a soldier because he was posted to the 2nd Battalion and arrived in Ypres just six months later.  He was killed in action about a month later on 10th May during the desperate fighting near the Menin Road/Sanctuary Wood.   

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Haywired,

 

That is some amazing information about Lt. Grindall. I've read about him often. Would love any information you may have as I continue to write on the 6th! In regards to the Camerons recruiting in the area of Kilmarnock it certainly happened. I have a newspaper clipping talking about the recruiting parties going down to Ayrshire in 1914 which I am trying to dig up. Is it possible that George joined up in Glasgow? It was not uncommon for men from smaller towns to travel to cities to enlist. I'm transcribing the diary of a Cameron now from Helensburgh who went to Glasgow and joined the Camerons. There was certainly an appeal to the Camerons that local regiments couldn't fill. If you are interested I can PM you an excellent PhD thesis done on recruitment in Scotland c.1914-16 and how less than half of recruits joined their "local" regiments. The HLI had the highest proportion of 'locals' with just over 50%. I'll also attach below I message I wrote a few days back on a different thread about QOCH recruitment in the early days of the war,

 

James

 

"The Service Battalions of the QOCH recruited heavily in the Central Belt. Cameron of Lochiel, the clan chief and an officer in the 79th, was asked by Kitchener to raise the service battalions of the Regiment, and the approach he took was to focus recruitment among the various highland and clan societies in Edinburgh and Glasgow. It was immediately evident that the traditional Inverness recruiting area would not be able to supply the needed numbers to create Lochiel's envisioned "Cameron Brigade". It's my personal belief that during WWI the QOCH represent a wider array of Scots than any other regiment. Lochiel even sent recruiters to Canada to bring back old Highlanders. Of course, a vast majority of the men in the regiment were not Highlanders, or even descended from Highlanders, but the growing Victorian ideals of the 'Scottish Soldier' fighting in kilt and bonnet appealed to many Lowland recruits. At my University the students refused to join the local Glaswegian regiments and followed a piper from the student union to the station, and boarded a train for Inverness and the Cameron Barracks. They ended up forming B Company of the 6th QOCH. Members of the Glasgow Stock Exchange originally formed D Company of the 5th, and as such the GSE's War Memorial depicts a Cameron Highlander. The 7th was much the same. Robbie Burns talks in his book about working in a Glasgow office and hearing the pipes and drums of the Camerons marching through the city, and he decided to join up with them. John Jackson who was originally from Carlisle, was working in Glasgow when war broke out and decided to enlist with his pals in Scotland. He described the 'type of men' going into the various regiments and decided the best were joining Lochiel."

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The demographics of Scotland were highly concentrated in 1914-1918. Nearly 3 in every 10 recruits came from Glasgow, Edinburgh or Dundee. By way of reference, the CWGC data provides a useful sample that is statistically robust: of the 72,300 men who died during the War who are recorded as being born in Scotland.

 

................................All Units.........QOCH

Total enumerated.....72,320.........4,512

 

Glasgow Born...........11,798............737

Edinburgh born.........6,264.............418

Dundee born.............2,950...............98

Subtotal...................21,012..........1,253

 

Subtotal % of Total.......29%.............28%

 

These stats are likely to be minimum numbers as there are entries for Barony Lanark, Barony Lanarkshire and Barony, Glasgow. Filtering by 'Glasgow' will not capture the former two but will capture the latter. In the QOCH sample there were 163 men from 'Barony Glasgow', 5 men from 'Barony Lanark' and 96 men from Barony 'Lanarkshire' meaning the 'Glasgow born' is understated by at least 101. Similarly there are at least a dozen locations suffixed Glasgow that have other entries suffixed Lanarkshire. 

 

The adjusted figures would be closer to 33% or one in three. 

 

MG

 

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