Saxe-Ernestine Knight (1st cl.) Saxe Coburg.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Please can anyone tell me why this Geman ducal medal would have been given to a British officer?

It was held by an officer I am researching, Derrick Alfred Carden (1875-1915) who was an officer in the 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders for most of his career and served in Crete, Sudan, South Africa and India before WW1. The only other mention I can find on the forum is in the biography of another Seaforth Highlander who also served in the 2nd Bn for much of his career, but was a bit younger and didn't serve in Crete or Sudan. South Africa seems the only theatre of war they have in common - or was it a purely ceremonial medal and nothing to do with war service?.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

It seems it was a Seaforths thing - see

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/45279-a-saxe-coburgseaforth-highlanders-mystery-award/

The poster here says that Charles Edward, 2nd Duke of Albany, Colonel-in-Chief of the Seaforth Highlanders, was since 1905 Carl Edouard, reigning Duke of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha, and awarded this in connection with the 1911 coronation of George V.

I am puzzled, though, that the poster on that forum says only Sergeant Munro of the 2nd Seaforths got this award and not the whole Seaforths entourage at the coronation, as it looks as if several officers of the 2nd Seaforths received it.

Liz

[Guest]

Liz - the two Officers you mention are only 6 names apart in order of seniority in the Seaforth Highlanders and would be contemporaries. The Colonel-in-Chief would probably have had ADCs and it is possible that these two officers were ADCs at some stage and were duly rewarded.i.e. the awards were not necessarily related to the coronation.

In the remote possibility that you do not already know this - Carden was the Adjutant of the 2nd Bn from 12th May 1911 until just before the War and was D Coy OC when the battalion deployed to France on 23rd Aug 1914. He was wounded on 21st Sep 1914 and rejoined on 23rd Dec 1914 going back to command D Coy again. St Clair is shown as serving with the 1st Bn in the 1914 Army List.

The 2nd Duke of Albany was still Colonel in Chief at the start of the war and famously served with the Germans during the Great War. He was stripped of his British titles.

MG

Source: 1914 Army List.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Martin, many thanks for this. It would be interesting to know how many other officers were rewarded - it was the other forum's thread that gave me the idea about the coronation but as you say this is not necessarily the case.

I have a fair bit now on Carden as mentioned here, with help from other members, but am quite ignorant about the Seaforths in any depth and had not known the 2nd Duke fought for the Germans!

Liz

[roughdiamond]

and had not known the 2nd Duke fought for the Germans!

Not only that Liz, he was a prominent Nazi Party member and represented them in the Reichstag.

Sam

[Old Tom]

The Times has reprinted a letter written by JG Swift Macneill in April 1916 bemoaning the situation of the Dukes of Albany and Cumberland who because of the links between the royal families of Europe and Queen Victoria were German and serving in the German army. In 1914 they held various British titles and ranks some of which had been removed by royal perogative but their dukedoms lasted until 1918 as an act of parliament was necessary to deprive them of that title.

Wikipedia has detail about both. Macneill argued they were guilty of treason, I suppose that depended on the hat, or insignia, they were wearing at the time.

Old Tom

[Khaki]

I would have thought that if they were born in Germany, they were German regardless of ancestral titles.

khaki

[Old Tom]

Sounds reasonable.

Old Tom

[Ron Clifton]

Even if they were born in Germany, they might still have been technically guilty of treason if they held British passports. That was how William Joyce was convicted in 1946.

Ron

[David Ridgus]

Did Dukes have passports in 1914?

[IPT]

My royal sources tell me that the Duke of Cumberland was a British General.

[Ron Clifton]

Are you sure that you are not thinking of the Duke who was around in 1745?

Ron

[IPT]

Not a proper one of course;

Queen Victoria appointed the Duke of Cumberland a colonel in the British Army in 1876 and promoted him to major general in 1886, lieutenant general in 1892 and general in 1898. Although he was a British peer and a prince of Great Britain and Ireland, he continued to consider himself an exiled monarch of a German realm and refused to disclaim his succession rights to Hanover, making his home in Gmunden, Upper Austria.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Ernest_Augustus,_3rd_Duke_of_Cumberland_and_Teviotdale

[Old Tom]

I wondered if the 45 would come up.

Old Tom

[Steven Broomfield]

I wondered if the 45 would come up.

Old Tom

As in Butchers and Bunglers?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

It must have been odd being in a regiment which had had a German Colonel-in-chief until the war. I was baffled about the German decoration held by a Seaforths officer I was researching until, with other members' assistance, I found out about the Duke of Albany:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222999&hl=carden

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

On 1/7/2015 at 10:52, QGE said:

Liz - the two Officers you mention are only 6 names apart in order of seniority in the Seaforth Highlanders and would be contemporaries. The Colonel-in-Chief would probably have had ADCs and it is possible that these two officers were ADCs at some stage and were duly rewarded.i.e. the awards were not necessarily related to the coronation.

...

Martin

Two and a half years later I return to say you were right, the coronation had nothing to do with it.  Doing some additional ferreting in the British Newspaper Archive I found some Scottish newspaper references to the inspection of Fort George by the Duke of Albany in 1910, at which a number of Seaforths officers received this decoration.  Carden, who was doing a stint with the 3rd (reserve) battalion from late 1908 to early 1911, was among them.

 

Liz

Edited 17 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
1910 not 2010!

[Guest]

Interestingly the 11th Hussars and the Leicestershire Yeomanry bore the Crest and Motto of the late Prince Consort (of Saxe -Coburg and Gotha) aka Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria. The Duke of Albany was their grandson. The Crest and Motto of the regiments were (in heraldic terms); A pillar charged with the arms of Saxony: A barry of ten, or and sable, a crancelin vert i.e. ten alternate horizontal bars of gold and black, crossed by a green crancelin. Click The motto was Treu Und Fest, the motto of the late Prince Consort

 

Despite the overtly German heraldic device, the 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars and the Leicestershire Yeomanry (Prince Albert's Own) both continued to wear their cap-badges through two World Wars. The 11th Hussars  and their successor regiments wore crimson trousers and pantaloons Click, which was the colour of the livery of the house of Saxe Coburg. The 11th Light Dragoons provided the escort for Prince Albert from Dover to Windsor when he arrived to marry Victoria and subsequently Albert patronised the regiment.

 

During the Victorian era the regiment had a number of German noblemen nominally serving in the regiment and the Colonel in Chief in August 1914 was none other than His Imperial and Royal Highness Frederick William Victor Augustus, Ernest, Crown Prince of The German Empire and Prussia KG.

 

Incidentally it was also a Company badge of the Genadier Guards (30th Company). Not widely known. 

 

MG

 

 

Edited 17 August , 2017 by Guest

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Martin, for this interesting digression - I know a little bit more about the 11th Hussars than the Seaforths, because one of 'my' Abadie brothers belonged to the regiment, 

I'd never seen this fascinating clip, though.  It's labelled 'c1967' but as the narrator refers to the Desert rats 'twenty years ago' it seems to me it must be a bit earlier.  He also pronounces the motto 'Treu und fest' as if the last word is 'vest', which is odd...

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Liz in Eastbourne said:

Thanks, Martin, for this interesting digression - I know a little bit more about the 11th Hussars than the Seaforths, because one of 'my' Abadie brothers belonged to the regiment, 

I'd never seen this fascinating clip, though.  It's labelled 'c1967' but as the narrator refers to the Desert rats 'twenty years ago' it seems to me it must be a bit earlier.  He also pronounces the motto 'Treu und fest' as if the last word is 'vest', which is odd...

Presentation of the Guidon which features in the film was 1965. The narrator is slightly off with '20 years ago etc..." and the Regiment was in Hohne in Germany at the time.

 

If you are interested in the 11th Hussars I have transcribed their war diary. It is available on Kindle for less than the cost of the pdf file from TNA. There is also a version heavily illustrated with photos from Col Pitman's album in the Great War which was used with the kind permission of HorsePower, the Museum of the regiment. It also includes the medal rolls etc. 

 

11th Hussars Great War Diary

 

Edited 17 August , 2017 by Guest

[GriffMJ]

The crest is still worn today on the collar badges of E (LDYPAO) Squadron The Royal Yeomanry..... I think the last in the British Army to still wear it on uniform?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Interesting to see it, Griff - thanks for posting.

I've learned a lot more about this than I ever expected, but that's the GWF for you...

Liz

[BullerTurner]

The heritages which are concealed in plain sight in the badges of surviving Yeomanry units, whether cave or on-cav, are considerable!  E is probably a book there but it might run to several volumes??