Which German Regiments were in Noyon or around the 30th April 1918?

[amblevem]

Hi,

At first happy New Year to everyone!

Heinrich Delges (13/04/1895 - 30/04/1918), a second brother of my grand mother died in Noyon (Pont l'Evêque) the 30th April 1918 at 11 AM. He was buried in Nampcel. It would interest me to know in wich Infantery Regiment he served.

Is it possible to know wich Infantery Regiments where in place in Noyon or around this date?

Thx

[amblevem]

I have picture from him. It's the soldier on the right. It's possible to find something on this picture to determinate in which Infantery Regiment he served? He was musketeer.

[bierast]

Hello there -

Is this your man on the war memorial in St. Vith-Recht / Provinz Lüttich?

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2010/st_vith-recht_wk1u2_be.htm

The regimental numbers are not visible in the photo, which tells us no more than the rank 'Musketier' - that your man was in a regular Prussian infantry unit. After a few searches I believe that he very probably belonged to 105. Infanterie-Division (which contained IR 21, IR 129 and IR 400, all of them ordinary Prussian infantry regiments without special uniform distinctions). This division was definitely active near Noyon at the time and suffered heavily in the April fighting, notably the attack on Mont Renaud on 30 April 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/105th_Infantry_Division_%28German_Empire%29

Here's some background on the Noyon fighting:

http://kaiserscross.com/41902/110701.html

Without better maps and cross-checking with regimental histories this all remains guesswork - other Prussian divisions were certainly involved (Bavarian 6.bRD was also there but can obviously be ruled out for your man, as can Sturmbataillon 5 which took a lot of casualties at Schloß Renaud on 30.04.1918).

Hope this helps

Andi L.

[trajan]

I would hazard a guess that his troddel, the bayonet knot, just visible by his upper left thigh, with a dark-coloured Stengel and a light-coloured Kranz, are red and white respectively, and so indicates the 2nd battalion, 5th company. But as Andi L indicates, there is nothing to indicate the regiment...

[amblevem]

@ Andi Lucas :

- Yes it's he. That are very helpfull informations. Thx for your searches.

@ Trajan : Do I understand it correctly, do you mean that he could have served in the 2nd battalion, 5th company of the 105th Infanterie Division?

I have another picture of him, but I don't think it can say much more.

[trajan]

@ Trajan : Do I understand it correctly, do you mean that he could have served in the 2nd battalion, 5th company of the 105th Infanterie Division?

I have another picture of him, but I don't think it can say much more.

That is what the troddel seems to be to me in the first picture although it could just be a red over a yellow, and so 2nd battalion, 7th company - but there is nothing to indicate which regiment.

The troddel in the second photograph, though, is different: it looks to me like a white (or possibly yellow) stengel over a red (or blue?) kranz... So, that gives a wider range of possibilities given that we cannot identify the colours precisely...

The key to what is what with troddel colours, BTW, and IIRC, is a German saying - "Wir Rauchen Gerne Brasil" = Weiß, Rot, Gelb, Blau = White, Red, Yellow, Blue. That mnemonic gives the sequence of stalk colours for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th battalions, and the sequence of crown colours for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., companies. And so a white/red combination would be 1st battalion, 2nd company; a yellow/red would be 3rd battalion, 10th company (as it is the 2nd company of the 3rd), and so on...

Is it my imagination or does Heinrich look a little older in the second photograph? If so, then he may have progressed from the 2/5 to the 1/2 of his regiment.

Trajan

[amblevem]

I have read yesterday “Histories of 251 Divisions of the German Army wich participated in the war (1914-1918) “ to find out the divisions that where in Noyon the 30th April 1918. I didn't found another Infantery Division than the 105th Infanterie Division (209. Brigade (IR 21 – IR 129 – IR 400)) that was in Noyon that day. So thx to Andi Lucas.

The 6. Bavarian Reserve Division was relieved by the 25^th Reserve Division the 21th April 1918 and they were in the West of Montdidier.

And thx to Trajan who helped me very much too. I never heard before of troddels and stengels. And I never saw the troddel before on the picture. I don't know of Heinrich is older in the second photograph. I always thought that the photographies were taken the same day. I suppose that they could go from the 2/5 to the 1/2 of the regiment and that is was possible too in the other sense from 1/2 to 2/5?

[bierast]

Your man lived in the VIII. Armeekorps district - so if he did indeed belong to 105. Infanterie-Division then he was probably in IR 400, which received its replacements from that district (the designated depot / replacement unit for IR 400 was I. Ersatz-Bataillon / IR 161 in Düren). conversely IR 21 and IR 129 were both raised in the XVII.AK district (Pommerania / Prussia).

IR 400 was formed on 12.9.1916 in the field by 8. Ersatz-Division with contributions from other units including LIR 36. If your man was in the field before this and was ultimately in IR 400 then you are definitely looking at more than one regiment during his career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Ersatz_Division_%28German_Empire%29

Going by the handmade furniture, it looks like both of your photos were taken in the same studio - albeit possiby years apart. The group picture could be from the beginning of the war going by the uniforms; the latter is from mid 1915 or (probably) later. It is quite likely that this was taken in a garrison town in Germany (maybe Düren or Aachen?) and that the second one was taken while back home with the Ersatz-Bataillon after going on leave or being wounded.

[amblevem]

Thx. I did not think that I could have so much information from this photo

[trajan]

Going by the handmade furniture, it looks like both of your photos were taken in the same studio - albeit possiby years apart. The group picture could be from the beginning of the war going by the uniforms; the latter is from mid 1915 or (probably) later. It is quite likely that this was taken in a garrison town in Germany (maybe Düren or Aachen?) and that the second one was taken while back home with the Ersatz-Bataillon after going on leave or being wounded.

Well spotted Andi!

Trajan

[amblevem]

I became the confirmation on a french forum that Delges Heinrich was in IR 400 7th company. Someone has give me copy of an old cimetery registry.

Does some literature exist for this IR?

What would be the colour combination of the trodell/stengel for the 7th company?

[trajan]

I became the confirmation on a french forum that Delges Heinrich was in IR 400 7th company. Someone has give me copy of an old cimetery registry.

Does some literature exist for this IR?

What would be the colour combination of the trodell/stengel for the 7th company?

For IR 400 - http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_400

The 7th company troddel = Stengel red, schieber and kranz yellow.

[amblevem]

When I'm right none of the two pictures shows a troddel of the 7th company

[trajan]

When I'm right none of the two pictures shows a troddel of the 7th company

BUT, you don't know when the photographs were taken...

The IR 400 has a mixed history - it was originally made up of men from Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 365, Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 93, and 8. Kompanie Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 36, and in 1916 it received men from Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 365. My granddad served with at least four regiments in the GW, and although a lance corporal in his first (territorial) unit, never made that grade again! In other words, it could be the same person in the photographs, but when he died he was no longer with either of the companys indicated by his troddel in the photographs.

Trajan

[bierast]

Logically photos taken at home before deployment (or during convalescence after being wounded) may also show a Troddel indicating company membership within the Ersatz-Bataillon rather than within a field unit.

There is unfortunately no published history of IR 400. Busche (Formationsgeschichte der deutschen Infanterie im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914-1918) gives some of the same information as on the Genwiki quoted by Trajan, and also has a bit more to say about regimental and commanders at time of formation:

Regiment: Major Schotte (from IR 130)

I. Batl.: Hauptmann d. L. Lotze
II. Batl.: Rittmeister d. L. Frhr. v. d. Goltz
III. Batl.: Hauptmann d. Res. Hartong

In the absence of a published history for IR 400, your best hope of finding out more about the combat record of IR 400 is probably to try the published histories for the other infantry regiments of 105. Inf. Div. (IR 21 and IR 129).

Hope this helps!

Andi L.

[amblevem]

Again you help me a lot, thx

[Chris Boonzaier]

The 2nd last photo here shows the Militärpass of a man from the 2nd. Komp of Sturm Bataillon Rohr who spent the Month of April 1918 on Mont Renaud, badly wounded on the final day , 30th April.

Also of interest is the entry for the Prussian Golden Military service cross, the highest other ranks baravery decoration...

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/451801.html

Best

Chris