silver war badge and discharge -- anything I've missed?

[FrancesH]

Bob, thank you so much. I definitely, definitely will be coming to Gloucester and would love to see the memorials. I had already seen the picture of Charles in 1933. The slightly amused sldeways glance seems to have been characteristic. Over Christmas I will try and find the picture of him on his horse. It is damaged because some member of the family cut Charles's head off it. My mother said it used to hang in their hall and was her father's most prized possession.

I believe he had been 'encouraged' to retire from the police because of his drinking, and he was desperate to find another job. On the morning of his death he was putting his boots on in the scullery when he died of a heart attack: As you say, Bob, he was found by my uncle Gordon, his younger son. After his death the rent and other payments were in considerable arrears and the family's possessions were all sold off to pay his debts. However, the police provided financial support for my mother Connie, his youngest child, who was only sixteen, until she was 21. I should very much like to know whether this payment was made by the force itself, or by the Police Federation.

I have just found a letter my mother wrote about family history in which there is the following:

"He [ie her father] was shot through the hand by a sniper. I know that there were some soldiers in the First World War who shot themselves in the hand to get back to Blighty, but I don't think this was a self-inflicted wound. He said he was hit by a sniper when he was holding a rifle, aiming a rifle, and the bullet went through his left hand."

So there we are, it was certainly not a self-inflicted wound!

I had no trouble attaching the original image of his medal card but I can't see where the 'attach' function is when writing a reply. If someone could just point this out I should be most grateful, and sometime over Christmas I will post the image of Charles on a horse.

Bob, thank you again for all your help.

[SteveMarsdin]

I had no trouble attaching the original image of his medal card but I can't see where the 'attach' function is when writing a reply. If someone could just point this out

Hi Frances,

If you select the "More Reply Options" button, it comes up

[FrancesH]

Thank you Steve -- here is a picture of my grandfather, grandmother and mother at Weymouth. I will dig out the horseback pic over Christmas.

[Willywombat]

Frances,

Thanks for positing the above picture.

The payments to provide financial support to the family after his death probably didn't come from the Police Committee. The minutes of their meetings give pension etc. payments in some detail and I've not found anything that relates to him. He had, after all, been out of the Force for some three years before he died and they tended only to pay in exceptional circumstances - e.g. to the families of men who died or were injured in service or as a direct result of the war.

It may have been the Police Federation or more probably the Christian Police Association via the Gurney Fund (although the latter primarily ran an orphanage rather than giving direct financial assistance). Gloucestershire Constabulary will probably have directed the family to those organisations rather than to the Police Committee (which, of course, used public funds).

(We are, however, in danger of wandering a little off-topic here!).

PM me when you'd like to come up to Gloucester and I'll make arrangements for you to see the war memorials and also, if you like, the Police Museum: http://www.visittetbury.co.uk/police-museum/.

Bob.

[FrancesH]

Thank you, Bob! Yes, think this topic is done now. Many thanks to all.

[FrancesH]

As promised, Bob, here is my grandfather on a horse! Any comments which might help me identify why he is on this particular horse, and when, would be very welcome! The original photo is the size of a large postage stamp and has been considerably cut about.

[Willywombat]

Thanks, Frances.

What immediately leaps out is his rank badge:

If you look carefully, he has two chevrons and what appears to be a crown above them. The only regiments that use that are (to my knowledge) the Household Cavalry and the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars! The RGH have two stripes for L/Cpl and two with a crown for full Cpl. This will be the tie-in to the RGH that you mentioned in the first post, despite his medal card indicating only the Gloucestershire Regiment (infantry) and Lancs Fusiliers.

Looking at the photo, it appears to have been taken in England (look at the hedges) and I suggest this might well be Badminton (the Duke of Beaufort's estate). The RGH held equestrian events and annual training camps on the estate sometimes, the Duke being Colonel (and known to everyone as 'Master' from the hunting connection). Indeed, to this day, the RGH (now part of the Royal Wessex Yeomanry) provide the radio comms for the Badminton Horse Trials.

So - my guess is that he served with the RGH pre-war but for some reason chose to join the infantry when he volunteered from the police force in 1915.

There is also the question of the two reins attached to each side of the bridle. I'm not very well up on horse tack, but hopefully someone on here will be able to enlighten us further (If you know what you're talking about, apparently you can tell rather a lot from the different patterns etc).

Bob.

[FrancesH]

Wow! Once again I am overwhelmed by expertise! I must say, I did wonder on enlarging the photo whether the rank badge would give the clue. That is wonderful and confirms my mother's statements. The Royal Gloucestershire Hussars! I am absolutely delighted. Does this mean, therefore, that he would have joined up as a full corporal, as he had attained that rank in the RGH, or would it not transfer over?

I look forward very much to any more specifically horse-related comments.

Thank you so much, Bob!

[Willywombat]

We have to remember that he almost certainly wouldn't have been able to serve in the RGH whilst a police officer. Today, 2% of a police force can join the Reserves and be liable to call-up in time of war, but I'm almost certain that option wasn't available at the turn of the century. They had enough reservists liable to call-up anyway, as the police force tended to recruit ex-servicemen, so they didn't want their ranks depleted still further by their officers also being members of the Territorial Force. The police force at that time was very different as well - the men were required to work long hours for low pay and pensions, with very little time off (hence the police strikes of 1918-19) so they simply wouldn't have had time to be in the TF.

Your grandfather will therefore have left the RGH on or before joining the police force in 1905. That means he will have been out of khaki for at least ten years prior to volunteering in 1915. I'm not sure if his rank would 'transfer' after that length of time? That said, he would probably have been given his stripes again pretty quickly anyway, as soon as he showed he was up to the job!

Bob.

[FrancesH]

I had no idea that he wouldn't have been able to serve in the RGH whilst serving with the police force -- as you say conditions were very different then. Would it have been seen as a positive thing for him being a policeman on joining the army, do you know?

[Willywombat]

I had no idea that he wouldn't have been able to serve in the RGH whilst serving with the police force -- as you say conditions were very different then. Would it have been seen as a positive thing for him being a policeman on joining the army, do you know?

Undoubtedly. For a start, police officers were already used to wearing uniform and taking orders. They were literate (having to write statements etc) and disciplined. Aside from physical fitness (many police officers were older men and not a few overweight - then as now!) they were ideal recruits.

Later in the war, after recruitment had come in, the War Office were mindful that any old Tom, Dick and Harry could be called up (be they the local village idiot, psychopathic squirrel-murderer or 'Camp Freddy' (if you've seen The Italian Job!)). To help keep standards up in certain more 'respectable' units, an arrangement was made between the Home Office and the War Office that police officers enlisting into the army would go to either the Guards or the Machine Gun Corps (both of which had somewhat higher standards than the norm).

You can see a thread about it here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219765&hl=

Therefore, yes, police officers were highly regarded as recruits. To this day, it's never a problem for a retired police officer to get a job!

[FrancesH]

A further point has occurred to me. Charles was only 18 when he joined the police in 1905. What was the minimum age for joining the Hussars? I am rather surprised that he became a corporal at such a young age. Bob, any thoughts?

[Willywombat]

Frances,

That's a very good point!

You could join the Territorial Force at seventeen (or younger as a band boy etc.), but that still doesn't give him all that long to get promoted. If, however, he joined the RGH as soon as he was able and then joined the police when he was almost 19, he had a couple of years in which to make Corporal. He may as well, of course, have been a very able young man!

I'm certain he wouldn't have been able to continue to serve in the RGH after joining the police. The hours were long and he would hardly have had the time. Today, 2% of a police force can join the reserve forces and be liable to call-up in time of war. Very few do, not least because shift work means that you have to juggle rest days and do swops with other officers to get the time to attend training evenings, weekends and camps etc. Nowadays, as well, there are a few days 'special leave' granted to attend annual camp, but in those days, such a scheme wouldn't have existed and the amount of leave they got was paltry. It was only in 1910 that the Police Rest Day Act came into force, which allowed every constable 52 days a year off duty (one day a week!). Prior to that, they weren't entitled to any and had to ask to rearrange duties and make up the time in order to attend weddings, funerals etc.

As examples of what being a police officer meant at that time, the Conditions of Service for Gloucestershire Constabulary, published in 1912, included the following:

He shall devote his whole time to the Police Service and shall not directly or indirectly carry on any trade or calling, nor shall his wife be allowed to keep a shop.

Even off duty, their lives were highly regulated:

They could not take a drink in a public house in their own districts, even off duty. They couldn't keep pets, particularly dogs. Smoking was discouraged and several men were cautioned for doing so off duty. The Chief Constable decreed that only Bryant and May safety matches were to be taken into police stations (which also means the attached police house), they had to 'wash and clean themselves as soon as they got up' (even on days off) and were forbidden to accept food or drink from anyone and could not have females visit them in their police stations.

As you can see, it is highly unlikely, working under those strict conditions and with just one day off a week, that he could have continued in the Territorial Force as well!

Bob.

[FrancesH]

Completely fascinating! It sounds almost like a religious order -- you gave your lives over to the police. After living like that the army must have been a pushover. It's clear looking at the photographs that my grandfather was quite a tall, well-built young man and he may simply have lied about his age to join the Hussars. After all he was a good horseman and that would have counted for a lot, wouldn't it? Since your suggestion of Badminton for the photograph I have spoken to my cousin, who is a landscape archaeologist who did her thesis on Badminton Park. She is 90% sure she has identified the exact spot where the photograph was taken and will be walking there in the near future to take a modern equivalent! You may also like to know that she thinks the wand which my grandfather was holding in the picture is the forked stick used for messages -- apparently even now it's used to send documents round the course at the Trials to save rummaging in a bag or pocket.

You may like to see the attached -- in 1994 my mother and father each made a tape recording about their childhoods answering questions from their grandchildren. The results are a bit random but my mother was here describing her childhood home, which was of course Lydney Police House, where they lived in the 1920s-30s.

Lydney Police Station.doc

Edited 6 January , 2015 by FrancesH

[Willywombat]

Glad it was of interest.

Let me know when you'd like to come to Gloucester and view the memorials.

Bob.

[rghya]

Sorry to come in on this one a bit late in the day and I hope that your visit to Gloucester was enjoyable......

My records show that a C. Bull of 9 Adelaide Street, Gloucester enlisted with the third line, 3/1 RGH Yeomanry on 5th May 1915; [published 15th May '15 Gloucester Journal], along with J. McKnight who later transferred to Gloucester Regiment (Mounted Foot Police)? There were a whole rash of Police recruited into RGHY around this time and most if not all did make rapid promotion as Bob has rightly made the point about their abilities..

As for the photo; the uniform is post 1914, the rank IS Cpl. for RGH/RGHY and the horse 'furniture' is correct for + 1915 onward..... As for the 'stick'; all NCOs had one, Cpls a short crop, Sgts slightly longer, Sgt Majs a 'Mule Wipp' and Officers a Brown Leather crop....

I have no record for Medals for him but Silver War Badge records should state previous Unit(s), have you seen those?

Anything else I can help with just ask.

Regards,

Larry

[FrancesH]

Hi Larry

Thank you very much for your contribution -- sorry not to have replied sooner but I have been away on holiday. This thread has been a revelatory experience providing so much fascinating information about Charles in particular and the Gloucestershire Yeomanry in particular. I would like to thank Bob again for the wonderful tour of the museum and the visit to the Police HQ, and my cousin Becca for taking me to see the site on the Badminton estate where the Yeomanry had their last prewar camp.

As will be seen from earlier in the thread, Charles belonged to the Yeomanry pre-war before joining the police, and then re-enlisted in 1915. I only wish I had an undamaged copy of the photograph.

Regards

Frances

[FROGSMILE]

The last post suggests an interesting path. He seems to have gone from the RGHY to the Gloucestershire Regt and then been immediately seconded to the Military Foot Police (MFP). There was no unified Corps of Military Police at that time, but instead two small corps of police staffed by men from the dismounted and mounted units of the Army. The MFP for the former and the Military Mounted Police (MMP) for the latter. I do not know why he chose to leave the RGHY, but given his swift detachment from the infantry to the MFP, it looks to me as if a deal was done to get a trained policeman (as at 1915) into the MFP, which probably needed men at the time.

The MFP & MMP had not been formed long and were tiny on the outbreak of war, with a need to expand rapidly to match the rate of increase in the Army as a whole. At that time men could not join the MFP or MMP directly and had to come first on attachment from their parent unit on probation. Some men went back after a period of attachment and others applied for a permanent transfer. A large number of policemen are known to have gone to the MFP, especially to the dock police section and, a newly formed forerunner of the special investigation branch, to deal with an emerging black market in purloined military stores.

There were no MFP or MMP 'badged' officers and the military policemen worked instead for formation level staff officers who were themselves on attachment and known as the Provost Marshall (PM) and the Assistant Provost Marshall (APM). For whatever reason it looks as if he did not stay long, either because he did not like the work and wanted to fight in a more active role, or for some reason did not fit in. Having joined the infantry on paper and with the cavalry bogged down by trench warfare he was clearly then sent to an infantry unit that happened to need men at the time.

[FrancesH]

That's fascinating -- and it may be relevant that I know he worked in Gloucester Docks in plain clothes before the war. All I know about his time in the Lancashire Fusiliers was that he didn't mention it to his children! As far as they were concerned he served on a horse throughout the war ...

[FROGSMILE]

That's fascinating -- and it may be relevant that I know he worked in Gloucester Docks in plain clothes before the war.

Yes that might be another contributing factor to his attachment to the MFP. We do not of course know, but if his character was such as to come accross as a 'know it all' then he would not have fitted in very well.

[rghya]

Just got word from one of the RGH experts on horse related kit, he said: "He seems to be on a 1908 universal pattern saddle and using a PMR bit; In 1902 the British cavalry adopted a new pattern of steel bit, called the Reversible Pelham, or Portsmouth Bit..."

This suggests that your photo was post 1908, the rank could have been "acting", i.e. temporary, due to previous pre-war RGH service and day-job experience... Which would not have transferred to Gloucester Regiment etc.

There is no indication of his roll within the RGH but, who knows, even to this day we have a Provost Marshall, (nicknamed The Sheriff), and two Provost Sergeants, "Jake and Elwood" (Blues Brothers) but in 1915 there would have been a large number of lower ranking NCO's within the Provost Section. [Cpl. was minimum rank to give them a smidge of authority].

Your thoughts FROGSMILE?

[FrancesH]

Further up the thread I think he was identified as being a corporal in the RGH?

[FROGSMILE]

Just got word from one of the RGH experts on horse related kit, he said: "He seems to be on a 1908 universal pattern saddle and using a PMR bit; In 1902 the British cavalry adopted a new pattern of steel bit, called the Reversible Pelham, or Portsmouth Bit..."

This suggests that your photo was post 1908, the rank could have been "acting", i.e. temporary, due to previous pre-war RGH service and day-job experience... Which would not have transferred to Gloucester Regiment etc.

There is no indication of his roll within the RGH but, who knows, even to this day we have a Provost Marshall, (nicknamed The Sheriff), and two Provost Sergeants, "Jake and Elwood" (Blues Brothers) but in 1915 there would have been a large number of lower ranking NCO's within the Provost Section. [Cpl. was minimum rank to give them a smidge of authority].

Your thoughts FROGSMILE?

He might have been the unit Provost Corporal, yes. As mentioned by FrancesH, he is pictured as wearing two stripes and a crown, which seems to have been a special RGHY badge of rank, similar to the Household Cavalry today.

[FrancesH]

Yes, Bob briefed me on this! A unique distinction, no doubt linked to the strong involvement of the Duke of Beaufort.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, Bob briefed me on this! A unique distinction, no doubt linked to the strong involvement of the Duke of Beaufort.

It was an interesting story and does show that there were occasional efforts by the Army to put square pegs in square holes and make use of mens experience prior to enlisting in the Army.