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Remembered Today:

silver war badge and discharge -- anything I've missed?


FrancesH
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I attach a photograph of a medal card issued for my grandfather Charles Bull. I understand that he was discharged as wounded. Charles has no surviving service record, so I was very interested to see this card. However, it doesn't quite fit with family information and I wondered if anyone can shed any further light on his wartime service.

1) Charles was a policeman (Glos Police) before and after the war, which I think was a reserved occupation. He was an accomplished horseman and there is a photograph showing him in uniform on a horse. It is not captioned but we have always believed he joined the Gloucestershire Yeomanry, not the Gloucesters. (We were aware that he was then transferred to the Lancs Fusiliers.)

2) My mother said that he was injured in the hand, but not otherwise. I have always been a bit suspicious of this and wondered if it was a self-inflicted injury. Would a hand injury have been enough to get him discharged? Presumably it would depend on whether it meant that he couldn't fire a rifle?

3) Does anyone know what 'List H' at the bottom (under 'Action Taken') meant?

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xvi(a) is "Surplus to requirement (having suffered impairment since entering service)" whereas xvi is "No longer fit for war service".

As it was Feb 1919 when he was discharged, it looks like an excuse to discharge him rather than transfer him to the "Class Z Reserve".

Sam

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Have you looked for the Medla Roll for his War and Victory Medals on Ancestry, the symbol next to his Gloucs service number and Medal Roll ref on the card suggests his medals were engraved with his Gloucs Details rather than Lancashire Fusiliers.

The Lancs Fus service number on his SWB card was allocated to the 5th Bn, he may have been transferred to the 4/5th later 5th Reserve Bn which stayed in the UK for the duration of the War after he was wounded/injured (1/5th, 2/5th and 3/5th all served in France), this would explain why his Gloucs number was on his medals (if that's indeed what is) rather than the Lancs Fus one.

Sam

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Ended up with the 1/7th LF

So its 303092 and not 203092 (was certain 1st digit was a 2), that explains the 1/7th.

Sam

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As always, chaps, you are amazing! Thank you all so much. Russ, can you tell me anything about the Gloucestershire Yeomanry? If this is a family myth, why on earth would Charles have been photographed on a horse in uniform? (Obviously he might just have thought he looked pretty good like that, but this was not a family that owned its own horses -- they groomed other people's horses -- so I think it must have been an army horse)

Now that his service battalions have been clarified, did he actually serve abroad at all?

Also I expect I am being dense about this but couldn't find the Medal Roll on Ancestry?

OK will stop asking questions now ...

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Sorry, don't know very much about the Glos Yeomanry - but a good start might be found here:

http://soldiersofglos.com/

Of course, Charles Bull may have been with them (at home) before transferring to the Glos Rgt - his MIC will only show units served with overseas and the last unit served with.

You know he served abroad because he has a MIC and a medal roll entitling him to medals that were only awarded for services overseas. He was entitled to those medals by service overseas with the Glos Rgt. You can't be sure if he served overseas with the LF.

Medal Roll here:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5119/41629_636897_10966-00146/2360258?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dIWOServiceMedalAwardRolls%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26_F8007A65%3d303092%26dbOnly%3d_F8007A65%257c_F8007A65_x%252c_F00061C3%257c_F00061C3_x%252c_F000836E%257c_F000836E_x%26uidh%3dhbo%26pcat%3d39%26fh%3d1%26h%3d2360258%26recoff%3d92%2b93%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Yes, his LF number was 303092.

Regards

Russ

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If this is a family myth, why on earth would Charles have been photographed on a horse in uniform? (Obviously he might just have thought he looked pretty good like that, but this was not a family that owned its own horses -- they groomed other people's horses -- so I think it must have been an army horse)

In 1914 there were 13 riding horses in an Infantry Battalion

see post 7 of this earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209737&hl=%2Bhorses+%2Bbattalion#entry2069369

If he had previous experience of horses it's natural he would act as officer's groom especially when the Battalion went on active service and no doubt was attached to the beast and the photograph was not only a record but an expression of his affection.

[We have a photo of my wife's grandfather who was in the Queen's but he is photographed on a 'riding' horse. His occupation prior to enlistment was a 'fishmonger's carter' so had experience of horses.]

Ken

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I don't think any evidence of a SIW at all. If there had been any question of such he may not have recd the SWB or medals. Any number of ways he could injure his hand from shrapnel to bullet or could've had it crushed working on a dugout. Any such injury may have kept him from handling a rifle not only in combat but also close order drill or even standing senty duty. In my view, as former policeman he would not seem the type to take the SIW way out. Hope you find more info on him.

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http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219995&hl=

You might find this thread of interest Frances - I think List H was a list of police officers called up but previously reserved occupation but Bob is the person to ask!

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Hi,

I too noted mention of Gloucester Constabulary and sent Bob a pm earlier this evening to alert him to this topic.

Regards

Steve Y

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http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219995&hl=

You might find this thread of interest Frances - I think List H was a list of police officers called up but previously reserved occupation but Bob is the person to ask!

The 'List H' referred to on the MIC in post #1 is the SWB list - the 'H' refers to the regional record office (Preston, I think) that was responsible for compiling the medal rolls and SWB rolls (you'll notice that the medal roll reference is also prefixed by an 'H').

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Headgardner is correct. The RO was in Preston and covered these regiments:

Lancashire Fusiliers.
East Lancashire Regt.
Border Regt.
Manchester Regt.
Loyal North Lancashire Regt.
King's (Liverpool Regt).
Royal Lancashire Regt.

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Hi everybody!

I notice two people have mentioned Bob from Gloucester who has a particular interest in the Glos Constabulary -- I look forward to being in touch with him in the New Year.

There is no doubt my grandfather was badly affected by WW1. He became an alcoholic and was violently abusive to his sons and even worse towards his wife and daughters. Knowing the havoc he created, I have always been inclined to think the worst of him. However, I now accept that it looks unlikely that his wound was self-inflicted and that this is a slur on his memory. I am so grateful as always for all your help and knowledge. It is actually rather wonderful to know more about Charles as a person, rather than simply seeing him as the family monster. I do know that before the war he was responsible for a 'remarkable arrest carried out in plain clothes' in Gloucester Docks, and that as the sergeant-in-charge at Lydney post-war, he was seen with considerable respect. I look forward (perhaps with Bob's help) finding out whether he volunteered or was called up. My mother (his youngest child) thought he had volunteered, much against her mother's wishes (pre-war their marriage was happier).

Thank you also for the interesting points about horses. Of course Charles could have been a groom in an infantry regiment, what am I thinking of? My daytime project (on the Sandhurst officers) has frequently found mention of their grooms, how else was a chap going to get about without a horse or two? My grandfather worked as a groom and a gamekeeper before joining the police, and his father was a groom and, um, a convicted horse thief.

Very best Christmas wishes to everybody on GWF, and especially those to take the trouble to respond to my asinine (or equine) questions

Frances

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Apologies for the confusion on my part about list H - the list I'm thinking of was mentioned by Bob and is evidently called something else! I defer to him.!

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I look forward (perhaps with Bob's help) finding out whether he volunteered or was called up. My mother (his youngest child) thought he had volunteered, much against her mother's wishes

The MIC tells us that he joined up in May 1915, so this indicates that he was a volunteer - Conscription was only introduced in Jan 1916. Having joined a TF battalion he would have been given a 4-figure service number. TF men were given new 6-figure service numbers in dec 1916, so the fact that only a 6-figure number is recorded on the MIC indicates that he didn't serve abroad before Jan 1917 (the MIC only records the details of his overseas service). Hope that makes sense.

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My attention has been drawn to this thread - and thanks to those of you who did so!

My findings concur with those stated above, that Charles served firstly with the Gloucesters (2/6th Bn) and then with the Lancs Fusiliers (1/7th Bn).

He was one of over a hundred Gloucestershire police officers who volunteered for the forces in May 1915. Eighty-seven were accepted, one of whom was Charles. Only a handful joined the Gloucesters, the vast majority joining the RGA (129 Heavy Battery, which was manned largely by police officers) and quite a number the Royal Glos Hussars. Herewith a photo of the volunteers and Charles will no doubt be amongst them:

post-12738-0-73305800-1419331801_thumb.j

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Charles was also one of a number of officers seconded away from the force to deal with the Tonypandy miners' strike in 1910/11. He is the officer fourth from the left in the middle row (looking slightly up and to the right). His collar number was 40.

I rather like the little bloke in the flat cap 'photobombing' from the doorway!!

post-12738-0-80969900-1419332160_thumb.j

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A colleague of mine has a website that deals with the history of Gloucestershire Constabulary and includes many pages of photographs. I think you'll find it of interest: http://www.gloucestershirepolicemuseum.co.uk Charles is shown in one of the photos there as a Sergeant in 1933, wearing his Great War medals.

Gloucestershire Archives have all the police service records for the period and I'm trying to access them. Unfortunately (despite being a police officer myself, and doing this research with the blessing of the Constabulary) someone at Glos Archives seems to have swallowed the Data Protection Act and won't let me see any record under 100 years old! Yes, I know - the DPA only concerns people who are living.... but there you go. :rolleyes:

I'm working on that, trying to get them to realise that the DPA is not intended to stifle genuine research and that where a now deceased police officer was stationed 100 years ago, when he joined the force, and details of his joining the armed forces and return to the force is hardly sensitive information! I've made a tactical withdrawal over Christmas, but will be relaunching the offensive in the New Year!

The Constabulary have a number of memorials to those killed in the World Wars, all of them displayed in the HQ building, as you walk in.

Charles is named on three:

1. The original, wooden framed WW1 memorial, with the names, ranks and units in gold lettering. (In the photo below, you can just make out his name on the top row under 'Wounded and Returned to Force')

2. The Roll of Honour, being a parchment book, with each officers' name and details (with cap badge) illuminated in full colour, one man per page, covering both WW1 and WW2 plus Gloucestershire police officers killed in the line of duty. (You can just see it in the glazed display table)

3. The 'amalgamated' WW1 and WW2 memorial, only recently made, displaying all the names from both wars. (This was not yet in place when the below photo was taken)

Frances - if you ever want to travel to Gloucester to see them, let me know and I can get you access.

I would love to see the photo of Charles on his horse, if that's possible?

Bob.

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I am not involved in any way with this thread but....

I have only been on this forum for a short time but every time I look I am amazed, not only by the depth of knowledge of members of this forum, but their willingness to share.

So the lesson for today, whatever you need to know you MUST ask !

Congratulations to all those who have and continue to assist Frances in this and a Merry Christmas to you all.

Regards. Ed

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The Gloucester Journal mentions Charles Bull's name in the issue of 08/11/19, in relation to a Roll of Honour (sadly, now missing) that was in Gloucester police station and commemorated those from Gloucester Division who served in the Great War.

The article mistakenly lists him as being in the Royal Berkshires and I did wonder if the Roll of Honour made the same mistake! (Please ignore the blue box - that's simply highlighting the search term I used to find the article in the online newspaper archive)

He is also listed in the same newspaper in 1915 amongst those who volunteered, and at that time he was serving at Gloucester police station.

Bob.

post-12738-0-24089600-1419343968_thumb.j

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7 1 1933 Western Daily Press

5175596910903296.png?k=vKPPL2qFpxNI1NnXZ

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Thanks, Simon.

He died suddenly at home in 1936. His dog alerted his son, who found the body.

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