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Remembered Today:

2nd Norfolk Regiment and Kut al amara, just a thought.


beestonboxer

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Steve, I've have this album too, or 1912.  In the "Best Trekking Company" photo above, 3rd row far right end, is my grandfather 8087 (later 72763 and 5765249) Pte Robert Henry Fisher.  He survived the Siege of Kut and went on to fight in the Third Afghan War 1919.  He was discharged in 1923 and immigrated to Canada, eventually becoming a WO II with the Argyll Light Infantry, Canadian Army.  He died in 1943.  Ailments blamed on the infamous Turkish biscuits from the day of the Kut capitulation were always blamed for his later health problems.  Best, John Fisher, Major (Ret'd), Canadian Army

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John, What probably saved your grandfather was being on an Prisoner Exchange list 2nd half 1916 (published Times 24/10/16) to India, although to get on this list he must have been seriously ill. Do you know where he was repatriated from? Was it Baghdad or perhaps Afion camp? and exactly when? I am looking generally at those taken at Kut and it would help me to understand what the records are showing.

 

I have a note that when he was captured he was 'Norfolks attached Corps of Military Staff Clerks'. Is this correct?

 

There weren't many who survived. It amazes me that some recovered sufficiantly to continue to serve- made of tough stuff!

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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Charlie, my understanding is that it was from the Baghdad hospital as part of the Red Cross exchange of about 350 prisoners.  'Norfolks attached Corps of Military Staff Clerks' is "wow!" to me, as I have no such records, but that note makes a lot of sense. Do you have any other info pertaining to him?  He is buried in the Belleville Cemetery, Belleville, Ontario, Canada.  He must have been tough indeed to go on to fight in Waziristan and Afghanistan in 1919. I'm still trying to figure out that period of his service.  He joined the 2nd Norfolks in 1910 and shipped-out to India.  He father and eldest brother were 1st Bn Grenadier Guards - he rebelled and joined the Norfolks to see the world.  He wanted to sign-up in WW II, but his health was too poor, and he ended-up as the head gardener for Royal Canadian Air Force Station Trenton (today CFB Trenton and the home of 8 Wing RCAF).  Cheers, John 

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  • 4 months later...

Ive got a nice casualty group to a Pte from the 2nd Batt who died in Turkey whilst a POW

 

Here is his photo from his In Memoriam card from his funeral. 

P1050942.JPG

P1050943.JPG

Edited by rupertx
another photo added
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George James Undery  died at Tarsus Hospital and was buried at the cmty there then exhumed by CWGC to be reburied at Baghdad North Cmty.

I presume you have seen his service records including earlier service in RFA Special Reserve 1908-10 before joining Regulars-2nd Norfolks 1910?

 

No reason for death is given, although others at the time at the hospital are noted as Enteritis. For that read gross mistreatment, neglect,starvation and exposure to all manner of illnesses. He must have done the long march to get to Tarsus.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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Charlie....

 

Fantastic information, thank you.

Yes, had seen his earlier service record on Lives of the first world war website.

 

To be honest ive owned this group for a number of years but have just advertised it on that dreaded auction site, along with several other casualty items.

 

Got a bit of a financial crisis so need to liquidate a few items.

 

Thanks again for the info. - Don't suppose you have anything on his brother Charles W Undery  T-27291 ASC ?

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  • 1 year later...

Hi, 

 

Just came across this post with interest. I am researching Harold Stimpson, for part of a project, who served in the 2nd battalion. He died a few days after they were captured at the Siege of Kut. What came of the album? 

 

Shannon

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7 hours ago, Shannon said:

I am researching Harold Stimpson,

Welcome to the forum Shannon,

The original poster on this thread is still active and may get in contact.

 

Harold Stimpson looks to have been one of those captured at the fall of Kut. Judging by his date of death he may have been one of those who, after enduring five months of siege and ending up half starved, was then forced to march 8 miles to the Shumran camp where they were given the Turkish biscuits to eat. For those who didn't take the time to soak them but ate them dry there was an agonising death that followed. Quite a few died this way. Perhaps your researches have turned up better information ? Do please let us know. I see that he had already been wounded in early 1915.

 

Charlie

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  • 5 years later...
On 06/04/2015 at 02:02, Guest Strowger1 said:

Morning. I would be very interested in any information about Hubert Strowger he was my Uncle. My father Victor Harry Strowger his younger brother served in France 1916. John strowger.

If ever you happen to see this John, my husband and his father are related to you. They are the grandson and great grandson of John Percival Strowger, the youngest of the Strowger children. I may have a photo of your father. 

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  • Admin

Welcome to the forum Amanda. Unfortunately, Strowger1 is no longer a member of the forum, as denoted by the Guest prefix. We won’t hold any contact information for them. 

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On 27/12/2014 at 11:38, MAW said:

I would be very interested if there is any mention of a Hubert Strowger (8514 Private to Lance Sergeant ) -

Attested 2nd Norfolk Regt 1911

Captured Kut-al-Amara 29th April 1916

Died in captivity c.April-Dec 1916.

Mark

I'm also interested. Also interested as to our connection! Will PM my email.

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5 hours ago, Amanda Rader said:

I'm also interested.

Some basics on Hubert George Strowger's service:

 He has a detailed service record that tells us:

First attested to the Territorial Force with 6th Bn Norfolk Regt (Cyclists) 29/9/1908, service number 327. He regularly attended annual camp 1909, 1910, 1911.

Attested to Regular Army, 3/10/1911, new service number 8514, for 7 years with the Colours and 5 in the Reserve. Joined the Depot.

Posted to 1st Bn 12/1/1912. Appointed paid Lance Corporal 17/10/1912 and Corporal 30/12/1913.

Posted as Corporal to 2nd Bn 10/2/1914.

Served in India from 11/2/14.

Assessed as Intelligent and works hard.

To Mesopotamia with 2nd Norfolks on the Transport Elephanta, and subsequent path set out in this extract (courtesy Findmypast)

gbm_wo363-4_007373366_01072.jpg.e6957ef50a3c5c4ab4c014253795ac97.jpg

All the paperwork including SoldiersEffects show death accepted between 29/4/16 (the fall of Kut) and 31/12/16. A very broad timespan suggesting no-one (who lived to tell) saw him after the fall ??

He appears in The Times list 22/6/16 of Norfolks believed taken prisoner at Kut but he does not seem to appear on the 2nd Norfolks lists prepared by RSM Aldridge?? 

He was wounded at Ctesiphon. The medical evacuation for these men was appalling. Some will have ended up in Kut in hospital under siege. I presume he was still around at the end of the siege but he does seem to have disappeared from any reports. 

 

He appears on the Basra memorial because grave is unknown.

 

I wonder if Peter @PRC has found more, particularly from local papers? 

 

Charlie

 

Edited by charlie962
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22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I wonder if Peter @PRC has found more, particularly from local papers?

Looks like he is associated with Ditchingham, an extended village with close connections to the market town of Bungay, the two being on either side of the Norfolk \ Suffolk county line. Bungay had it's own newspaper, plus there were a number of others that covered the North Suffolk area. If copies still exist they are likely to be at the Suffolk County Archive. I've just had a quick check of my notes from the Norfolk County archive and from what I've typed up so far I only have officers mentioned from Ditchingham, not a single other rank.

He is listed on the slightly gothic Ditchingham War Memorial inside the church of St. Marys, and while an accompanying handwritten Roll of Honour is quite specific about everyone else, Sergeant Strowger is just shown as "Died at Kut 1916".

DSCF0116.JPG.8e02d41afcff6375458a836d5723fd09.JPG

DSCF0123.JPG.bee3218557e188f53fb94a3959e172ad.JPG

Cheers,
Peter

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@PRC and @charlie962

 

thank you so much for your replies. I have fond some his documents, but it's nice to have someone who knows what they mean explain some of it. I see now the "Fall of Kut" and other things I hadn't seen or known before. And I didn't know about the Cyclists. And I hadn't seen the scroll from the Ditchingham memorial. His brother Victor Harry Strowger was also in the war - he continued on in the military into the 30's. And their Alexander Edward  Strowger was also in the war.( I have some photos of him. )And now knowing that Bungay and Ditchingham were on the border of Norfolk/Suffolk makes so much sense as sometimes they show up in Suffolk and sometimes they show up in Norfolk. His father Edward was a sea fisherman in the Herring industry. Which I suppose, many were in those days. I appreciate all the details. Many thanks. Lest we forget. 

 

 

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Amanda Rader,

I am not related to Hubert Strowger, but I have his memorial plaque (image attached).

The location of his 15 Star / BWM / VM trio is unknown.

Below is a summary of my notes on him.

Mark

.......................................................................................

Hubert George Strowger

Born Kirby Cane, Norfolk, c.1892.

Resided Ditchingham, Norfolk.

Occupation Butcher’s Assistant.

Attested Bungay, Suffolk, 3rd Oct 1911, age 19.

Served India (1914) and Mesopotamia (1914-16).

Landed Saniyeh, Mesopotamia 15th Nov 1914.

Wounded Ctesiphon 22nd Nov 1915.

Captured fall of Kut-al-Amarah 29th Apr 1916.

Died in captivity during period 29th Apr - Dec 1916, age 24.

No known grave.

Commemorated Basra Memorial, Iraq and Ditchingham War Memorial, St. Mary’s Church, Ditchingham, Norfolk.

Plaque.jpg

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20 minutes ago, MAW said:

Died in captivity during period 29th Apr - Dec 1916, age 24

So you, like I and others, have not found any clear identification of him subsequent to the wounding at Ctesiphon. All is presumed per the service record! Very frustrating.

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If only the Norfolk Regimental Museum had gone ahead with the Lottery funded project transcribing and putting online the Regimental casualty book.

That might have given some idea of the nature of his wounding at Ctesiphon and thus why he was in Kut rather than it being serious enough for him to be sent on downstream and thus escaping the siege. Given all the uncertainty I assume there is even a chance that he was actually captured while serving with the forces attempting to break the siege.

Might be worthwhile contacting the museum directly https://www.theogilbymuster.com/royal_norfolk_regiment

Cheers,
Peter

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21 minutes ago, PRC said:

and thus escaping the siege.

Not forgetting that this evacuation down river was horrendous and many died in those overcrowded barges that made a very slow descent.

23 minutes ago, PRC said:

putting online the Regimental casualty book.

That could be a fascinating read.

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2 hours ago, MAW said:

Strowger's Pension Card (attached) states that he was a Prisoner of War when he died.

Unfortunately not a statement of proven fact, just a re-hash of his status from the service record that has been communicated to the Ministry of Pensions. In the absense of any evidence to the contrary it was assumed he died at some point after the fall of Kut and therefore "must" have been a prisoner.

That would have been because nothing was received to say he died during the retreat from Ctesiphon or during the siege of Kut, but unfortunately Army records are not 100% accurate nor can it be assumed the information sent got through to Corps \ Army \ Base level actually got there. And no communication being received from the Turks about him was par for the course and wouldn't by itself raise any doubt at the time about that status as an (assumed) prisoner of war.

Hence why knowledge of what his wounds were - if that information is recorded in the Norfolk Regiment Casualty Book - might provide some insight. If he was too badly wounded to be sent on by barge - having already been carried to Kut on unsprung wagons - then likely he wouldn't have survived the siege. But wounded and remained at his post type injuries could well have seen him bottled up in Kut, taken prisoner at the surrender and subsequently died on the march into captivity.

Cheers,
Peter

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12 minutes ago, MAW said:

Where are the following located?

(1) RSM Aldridge's lists of 2nd Norfolk men

(2) Norfolk Regiment Casualty Books

Royal Norfolk Regimental Museum

Shirehall

Market Avenue

Norwich NR1 3JQ

Aldridge's list was online at one stage as part of Norfolk's WW1 centenary work. I copied it at the time, I think.

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