Mixed Nationalities: Anglo-Germans

[healdav]

There were thousands whose nationality was, to put it mildly, questionable.

I know of many who were in the German army, but their cousins, nephews, uncles, were in the French or Belgian army. It was inevitable given the frontier changes that took place with the politicians using frontiers as a movable feast depending on who was promising what to whom.

Of course, in WW2 the USA did not regard an oath of allegiance as meaning anything when it came to the war, and happily locked up people who thought they were Americans by naturalisation. I don't think that happened much elsewhere, and certainly not as a policy, but there are all sorts of examples of individuals being treated pretty badly by one country or another (and sometimes just what was going on is quite incomprehensible).

In fact, the French behaved dreadfully to the French who were evacuated by the Germans from the St Mihiel salient, and transferred to Free France via Switzerland - many hundreds were treated as aliens by the prefectures of the regions they were living in.

[charlesmessenger]

Martin

My coulsin Charles de Lemos was born in Hamburg, his parents being German. His father then moved to Ceylon to plant tea and became a naturalised Brit. Young Charles joined the Ceylon Planters Rifle Corps and then sailed to UK in 1915. He applied for a commission, explaining on the application form that, although born in Germany, he was a naturalised Brit. He was vouched for by my grandfather, a Paymaster Commander RN, and this appears to have done the trick. He joined the Artists' Rifles, was commissioned into the Middlesex Regt and sent to Salonika, where he was captured by the Bulgarians.

Charles M

[seaforth78]

Major CW Meissner, was a classmate of BL Montgomery (Sept 1908) was British born of German parents. He changed his name after his return from West Africa in 1915. I used to own his sword.

[seaforths]

I seem to recall seeing something in the FO files on a man being interned who had a serving son in the British Army. I'll see if I can track that one down. I also seem to recall reading something about soldiers of German descent being given menial jobs to do that were in the ASC and/or Labour Corps. I might have more trouble tracking that one down but I'll give it a go...I do know of an Italian (WW2) that had 3 serving sons and was let out to collect the postumous VC of his youngest lad from the king, who allegedly intervened to stop him being sent back into confinement!

[seaforth78]

.I do know of an Italian (WW2) that had 3 serving sons and was let out to collect the postumous VC of his youngest lad from the king, who allegedly intervened to stop him being sent back into confinement!

That made my day!

[seaforth78]

You know, I'm just wondering how many pre-war German born unnaturalised aliens were allowed to join the forces. There must have been plenty of them as evidenced by the cat calls that 2nd Scots Guards threw over the parapet in December 1914 like "Hey Waiter, service!"

A good book to trawl through is 'The Bond of Sacrifice" 1914-15 2 Volumes.

[Guest]

Dear All - thanks for your responses. I bought 'Meeting the Enemy' by Richard Van Emden which is very well researched and has lots of examples of serving men descended from foreign nationals, some of whom were interned. An eye-opening publication. MG

[headgardener]

I also seem to recall reading something about soldiers of German descent being given menial jobs to do that were in the ASC and/or Labour Corps. I might have more trouble tracking that one down but I'll give it a go...

You're thinking of the Independent Labour Companies. I think They were part of the Middlesex Regiment, and appear to have been full of men of German origin (I suppose that many of them would have been living in London). Searching the forum should turn up plenty of information on the ILC's.

[seaforths]

That made my day!

It was quite shocking really, the man had 3 serving sons (two killed including Dennis) and 2 daughers in the Territorials. The lad (Dennis) was only 4' 10" the youngest VC winner at that time (don't know if that still stands). http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/who-north-easts-italian-world-8325348

You're thinking of the Independent Labour Companies. I think They were part of the Middlesex Regiment, and appear to have been full of men of German origin (I suppose that many of them would have been living in London). Searching the forum should turn up plenty of information on the ILC's.

Thanks for confirming that. I read it in a book, not the forum. I suspect I know the book now and also suspect it was a paperback and I tend not to keep many of those. The chap was quite frustrated and had initially thought he was going to be an interpreter. The book may turn up yet, if it hasn't been subjected to my paperback cull.

[seaforth78]

It was quite shocking really, the man had 3 serving sons (two killed including Dennis) and 2 daughers in the Territorials. The lad (Dennis) was only 4' 10" the youngest VC winner at that time (don't know if that still stands). http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/who-north-easts-italian-world-8325348

Ah, Donnini! So it was him. Funnily enough, I had met in Japan some 10 years his 3rd cousin from Newcastle. We happened to work together and once I asked him if he knew that he had a namesake who won the VC in the Second World War and I had never met a man who replied in a completely deadpan way saying that was his aunt's brother's cousin! Ironically he was a former Royal Highland Fusiliers man. (which got us to talk about the British Army in the first place) Locked him his old man who came to Britain legally in 1899! Gosh, and I thought the Americans were bad regarding the Japanese-Americans in 1941!

[seaforths]

Ah, Donnini! So it was him. Funnily enough, I had met in Japan some 10 years his 3rd cousin from Newcastle. We happened to work together and once I asked him if he knew that he had a namesake who won the VC in the Second World War and I had never met a man who replied in a completely deadpan way saying that was his aunt's brother's cousin! Ironically he was a former Royal Highland Fusiliers man. (which got us to talk about the British Army in the first place) Locked him his old man who came to Britain legally in 1899! Gosh, and I thought the Americans were bad regarding the Japanese-Americans in 1941!

I knew of him because I was teaching in Easington school for a while (where his father had the ice cream parlour) but I think he was possibly from nearby Murton. We are gonna get our asses kicked for being off topic. I tender my humble apologies. I'm waiting for a damage assessor and rummaging for that elusive book. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I've a feeling the guy eventually ended up in Berlin in the army of occupation working as...an interpretor which is all he wanted to do in the first place!

[clive_hughes]

On a whim, I entered "Germany" under the birthplace entry for SDGW and got at least 17 hits on the first page of 50 names. It then got a bit mixed up with men who died in Germany. Some of the German-born had splendidly Teutonic names as well, others English ones.

Clive

[bierast]

Re. being in enemy territory at the outbreak of war: my GGF was working for a (Swedish, I think) firm in Helsingfors / Helsinki in July 1914. At that time Finland was of course still under the Imperial Russian yoke (Finnish independence being one of the few WW1 German successes not reversed by the enemy - you're welcome, Finland).

Going by his CV (drawn up in 1935, after the Nazis had put an end to his career as a trade union leader) my GGF handed in his notice on 28th July 1914 in order to return to Germany. Being an intensely practical man, he even got a hasty written reference from his employer before he left - the company expresses regret that he had to leave them after only four weeks in the job 'due to the outbreak of war, in order to fight for his country'.

He appears to have evaded Russian internment easily enough, and signed up as a war volunteer with Feldartillerie-Regiment 48 in Dresden on 24th August. I can't help wondering whether (with the benefit of hindsight) he actually increased his chances of survival by so doing, given the relatively low lethality of service with the artillery. Following the final Russian collapse in 1917, those POWs (and presumably internees) in Russian captivity who had not fallen victim to disease or starvation had to travel vast distances to Central Powers held territory (seemingly under their own steam) if they ever wanted to see home again.

- an Anglo-German

[seaforth78]

Re. being in enemy territory at the outbreak of war: my GGF was working for a (Swedish, I think) firm in Helsingfors / Helsinki in July 1914. At that time Finland was of course still under the Imperial Russian yoke (Finnish independence being one of the few WW1 German successes not reversed by the enemy - you're welcome, Finland).

- an Anglo-German

Hello Andi,

I am totally confused. Was your GGF half German-half British who was caught in what is now known as Finland that went to fight for Germany in 1914?

Best wishes,

S78

I knew of him because I was teaching in Easington school for a while (where his father had the ice cream parlour) but I think he was possibly from nearby Murton. We are gonna get our asses kicked for being off topic. I tender my humble apologies. I'm waiting for a damage assessor and rummaging for that elusive book. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I've a feeling the guy eventually ended up in Berlin in the army of occupation working as...an interpretor which is all he wanted to do in the first place!

What a facer for the King when the father went to pick up his son's VC! Good for him! And God save the King!

[bierast]

I am totally confused. Was your GGF half German-half British who was caught in what is now known as Finland that went to fight for Germany in 1914?

My GGF was entirely German (Saxon, specifically), while I am of mixed Anglo-German ancestry. I offered my GGF's story as an example (with dates) of a Central Powers national who was working in Entente territory when the 'balloon went up'.

[seaforths]

Well, I found the book I was looking for and it might seem strange but I seem to have juxtaposed the texts of two books together in my head. I need to find the other book...The book I found has Charles Horton RAMC who was studying for and managed to complete his degree. From reading the start of the book, I was able to identify he had studied German at this level. Indeed one of his tutors, whose English was poor, left Britain and joined the German Army as an officer. Horton (now reading the end of the book) did finish up in Berlin at the end of the war. He was approached to go there to help with language difficulties and act as an interpreter. I've not re-read the middle bit (the whole book). I have read a book (honest) about someone who tried to join as an interpreter...

Yesterday, I was looking for information on an RFC man and found the following man:

Sir Egbert Cadbury, DSC, DFC, RFC - he obviously had an ulterior motive for wanting to save Belgium (chocolate). I am, of course making the assumption that Egbert is a German name and I've not had a dig around in his ancestry or parentage.

[healdav]

I have just remembered that Wintle (The Last Englishman) was being courtmartialled (not for the last time) when he was asked a question by the Prosecutor who replied to the answer, "you would have to be in the German army to know that". To which Wintle replied, "I was".

He was as English as they come, but had been in a German colonial force before WW1 in Africa where he was living.

All sorts and all mixtures.

[headgardener]

Yesterday, I was looking for information on an RFC man and found the following man:

Sir Egbert Cadbury, DSC, DFC, RFC - he obviously had an ulterior motive for wanting to save Belgium (chocolate). I am, of course making the assumption that Egbert is a German name and I've not had a dig around in his ancestry or parentage.

If you search the MIC database using typical German first names (Hans, Fritz, Moritz, Armin, Konrad, Josef, etc) you may be surprised at how many hits you get. They are often mistranscribed, so it helps to do wild-card searches for the 'difficult' letters (i.e. Frit*, Morit*). The surnames are often clearly German, or imply mixed ancestry - I suspect that quite a few would have been jewish.

[seaforth78]

Sir Egbert Cadbury, DSC, DFC, RFC - he obviously had an ulterior motive for wanting to save Belgium (chocolate). I am, of course making the assumption that Egbert is a German name and I've not had a dig around in his ancestry or parentage.

Well that's it. Now we know who is responsible for all those melodramatic colourful atrocities stories that the German Army committed in brave little Belgium! Pun aside, what an extraordinary man. Thanks!

[PFF]

Links of interest

http://feefhs.org/links/other/agfhs-bk.html

WW II COunt Czernin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Manfred_Beckett_Czernin

[seaforths]

Currently reading Philip Warner's book on Loos. An account included in the book p.93 from a Sergeant signaller crossing ground with an officer heard shouts of 'Leslie! Leslie!'. He saw a German stretcher bearer with a wounded German officer. The British officer with the Sergeant signaller went over and returned to the Sergeant, tellng him the wounded German officer was his cousin. I think the British Lieutenant's surname was Pollak.

[seaforth78]

Seaforths,

Did Warner mention the BO's name and Regt?

[seaforths]

Seaforths,

Did Warner mention the BO's name and Regt?

Account was submitted by Lt. Col. JJ Sheppard 1/19 London Regiment, 47th Div. He states that at the time, he was a 'Signal Sergeant'.

'On my way back from the old British line after collecting some equipment I was hailed by our Lewis Gun Officer Lieutenant L. Pollak ... As we were passing through the enclosure near the "Tower Bridge" (Pylons) we heard someone call Leslie! Leslie! and noticed about 30 yards away by a wall a German Stretcher Bearer with a German Officer on a stretcher. Lieutanant Pollak asked me to wait and went across to investigate - he came back and told me the officer who called was his cousin who was badly wounded and had asked for his help in getting him down to the Casualty Clearing Station. He asked me what I suggested he should do. I said it was a matter entirely for him to decide. He thereupon returned to the German and told him that when all our own wounded were dealt with he might then receive some attention. (I would mention here that the 19th London's had some officers of Jewish extraction who were sons of naturalised German Jews and probably had family connections in Germany)...'

[seaforth78]

This spelling of Pollak is definitely a Jewish name (in that spelling as opposed to Pollock which is not a related name) but really the chances of meeting your cousin on the battlefield! Hope he survived.

[seaforths]

This spelling of Pollak is definitely a Jewish name (in that spelling as opposed to Pollock which is not a related name) but really the chances of meeting your cousin on the battlefield! Hope he survived.

I did ponder on that one for a while. The chances of meeting a relative on the battlefield on opposing sides and recognising them too. I have a couple of cousins I only met in childhood and while I still saw my aunts when I was an adult, my cousins had moved out and moved on. I could pass them in the street now and never know them (if I lived anywhere near them, which I don't). However, that these two men recognised each other, in those circumstances, in uniforms, indicates it was not a distant relationship that they had previously.

What I also thought was strange was that the fact that the wounded man was his cousin seemed to affect his decision. As far as I am aware, wounded were supposed to have been treated on a par with each other regardless of which side they were on. However, I realise that was probably not always adhered to.