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Remembered Today:

Mixed Nationalities: Anglo-Germans


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Does anyone know if there was an official policy on any British servicemen who had at least one German parent. For the sake of the OP, can we assume the parent or parents were naturalised British but born and raised in Germany.

Clearly the Royals had German blood, but I think this rather large example is well understood. Can I make a plea that we please exclude the Royals form the discussion. Ditto Gleichen. Thanks.

I am particularly interested in Officers and men who had German heritage. How were they treated and how did this change?. The most prominent example I can think of was Maj C A L Yate VC whose mother was German (I think). Captured at Le Cateau and was allegedly murdered* when trying to escape as a POW. In this case Yate was clearly accepted as being committed to the British cause despite his German heritage. I wonder if there are any examples of men with German blood who were considered a risk.

I am also interested how the German parents were treated. Is there any remote chance a German parent would be interned whilst their son was fighting for the British? What happened to German born residents in the UK during the war.

We also hear of many examples during the (dare I say) the Christmas Truce of Germans who had worked in the UK. It raises the question, during the period running up to the declaration of war by the British, was there a huge exodus of Germans working in the UK? ...or had these men worked in the UK and returned months and years before the declaration of War? When the German Army mobilised (dates?) would Germans in the UK get a telegram calling them back? How did this work? By comparison British Soldiers on the Reserve needed permission to reside overseas

I have the same questions as above for Germans with an English parent residing in Germany.

Also, I understand that some regiments such as the 11th Hussars had Officers who were full blown Germans (semi-Royalty) who had to leave rather hastily. This was a story handed down through family and might not be true. but worth exploring.

MG

* The German authorities say that he committed suicide.

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Does anyone know if there was an official policy on any British servicemen who had at least one German parent. For the sake of the OP, can we assume the parent or parents were naturalised British but born and raised in Germany.

Martin,

Is you question specifically directed at the family background of UK servicemen?

For while that sort of thing may have been quite rare in the UK, it must have been more common in the dominions; Australia, Canada & Newfoundland, New Zealand etc

One example which springs to mind is the Australian commander John Monash, both of whose parents were from Germany.

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Martin, I don't know about official policy but I've found a few examples of officers with parents born in Germany (and more of course with German-born grandparents, but they were very anglicised) such as Beechman (21/KRRC) who was later an MP, I don't know what happened to his parents, though - they w ere naturalized British so should surely not have been interned.

Another young officer was Oliver Emanuel (Wiltshire Regt), who changed his name from Otto before entering Sandhurst, and whose father hastily transferred his German business to his brother-in-law in Germany.

Liz

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"Meeting the Enemy" by Richard van Emden has a lot of information on the situation of aliens in both Britain and Germany and is a good read in general.

Nigel

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Martin,

Is you question specifically directed at the family background of UK servicemen?

Yes. When one looks at the seemingly endless list of names of Officers in the 1914 Army List, there are more than a few Germanic names. Some may be of German-Swiss descent but I assume some will have been of German descent - Von Essen for example. Three Cavalry regiments had German or Austrian royalty as Colonels in chief in Aug 1914 (1 KDG, 1(Royals) Dragoons and 11H).

At the other end of the scale, R A Lloyd in his "A Trooper in the Tins" mentions some German nationals who were serving in the Life Guards who were rather morose at the prospects of war. They disappeared very quickly in the immediate days before mobilisation. I suspect there were many more examples. MG

"Meeting the Enemy" by Richard van Emden has a lot of information on the situation of aliens in both Britain and Germany and is a good read in general.

Nigel

Thank you. A book I don't own, so thanks for flagging it. MG

Martin, I don't know about official policy but I've found a few examples of officers with parents born in Germany (and more of course with German-born grandparents, but they were very anglicised) such as Beechman (21/KRRC) who was later an MP, I don't know what happened to his parents, though - they w ere naturalized British so should surely not have been interned.

Another young officer was Oliver Emanuel (Wiltshire Regt), who changed his name from Otto before entering Sandhurst, and whose father hastily transferred his German business to his brother-in-law in Germany.

Liz

Thanks Liz. Interesting. MG

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There does not seem to have been too much official concern about Prince Louis of Battenberg being First Sea Lord, or Sir Stanley von Donop being Master General of the Ordnance, although there was certainly public concern expressed about their positions. Sir S in particular was accused of sabotaging or delaying munitions production.

I believe that Major-General Percy, who was MGGS Third Army, changed his surname from a more Germanic one, and I'm sure that there were many others who did likewise.

Ron

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Did not Battenberg become Mountbatten?

Also, IIRC, Robert Graves had issues with his middle name, von Ranke.

Actually, while I'm here, Martin, do you think the thread title might be changed? "Cross Nations" sounds like a scrap in a bar: something like "Mixed Nationality" might attract a better class of interest. :whistle:

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Did not Battenberg become Mountbatten?

Also, IIRC, Robert Graves had issues with his middle name, von Ranke.

Actually, while I'm here, Martin, do you think the thread title might be changed? "Cross Nations" sounds like a scrap in a bar: something like "Mixed Nationality" might attract a better class of interest. :whistle:

Battenbergs, Tecks (Life Guards) and Gleichens all changed names under a Royal Warrant in July 1917. Link here for the full shouting match

In the Army List of Aug 1914 there are; Von Essen Moberley (11H), Von Steiglitz (Connaught Rangers), Von Pawel, (6th essex)Von Peollnitz (Herman 10th Lincs), Von Roemer (RFA), Von Truenfels (HAC), Beitmeyer (7 H), von Brockdorff, Weinhardt, and the spectacularly named im Thurn, Bernhardt B von B (Hampshires) etc..to name a few. Some or all of who may well have German connections. I recall from transcription works a few dozen Germanic names popping up. I never made note at the time but I was constantly wondering if they had been given any stick by their brother officers or even (quietly) by the rank and file.

My sense is that outside the Colonel in Chiefs, the vast majority of Anglo-German officers were fully assimilated into British society and saw their allegiance with Britain. Given the sheer scale of the Great War, there must be examples of men who had split loyalties or even fled to Germany and possibly fought on the German side. I have a vague recollection of some British public-school educated men having fought for Germany.

More difficult to trace are those with English surnames due to their British father and German mother, or Germans that anglicised their names in prior generations. The histories and war diaries seem to be devoid of any mention, so I suspect any interesting material will be in personal diaries.

I recall reading Haldane was sidelined for his alleged German sympathies, which always puzzled me given the monarchy's links to the Vaterland. While not of German blood, he studied at Gottingen University and was fluent in German. If a man as important as Haldane could be sidelined, one wonders about men the Anglo-Germans.

Your idea on thread title is well received.

MG

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The most prominent example I can think of was Maj C A L Yate VC whose mother was German (I think). Captured at Le Cateau and was murdered when trying to escape as a POW.

Major Yate wasn't murdered - he committed suicide:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197372&hl=yate

“By all accounts he felt deeply humiliated by his capture and there are accounts of several escape attempts. Plans for a fresh breakout by several officers including CAL Yate were already under way when, on 18th September 1914, two German officers visited the camp and asked to see Major Yate alone. After this visit he apparently became visibly agitated and it was agreed that the escape plans should be brought forward and all resources concentrated on his effort.

With the help of his comrades, and disguised as a civilian, he was able to slip out of the camp on the night of 19th September. The following morning, because of his unusual appearance, he was stopped by factory workers, who demanded to see inside his haversack. At this point Major Yate cut his throat with a razor realizing that the contents of his haversack would betray him as an Englishman and, at worst (given his fluency in German), he might be taken for a spy. It is possible that he had anticipated such an incident as, the night before his escape, he had apparently swapped his own safety razor for an open razor belonging to one of his fellow prisoners.”

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My grandfather (Surname at birth von Berckefeldt) was born in India to a German father, and an Anglo/Swiss mother. He was educated at Bedford School (popular with colonial families I believe). He originally enlisted with the King Edward Horse which had different units for the different colonies, but he ended up in the Middlesex Regiment, in an 'alien labour unit'. There's info on the long, long trail about these units. I have an idea that the Middlesex Regiment was a 'collecting point' for aliens and reading about these labour units explain this. I presume they wanted to keep any soldiers who might have divided loyalties under close watch, and I think they were not in the front line, but behind the lines (albeit in F&F).

My grandfather by all acounts sounded every bit the English public-school educated man, but his naturalisation only came through after 1918.

He certainly had first cousins in the German army and that must have been extremely hard for him to live with.

I have 'Meeting the enemy' as yet unread, so I will move it up my reading pile forthwith.

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Major Yate wasn't murdered - he committed suicide:http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197372&hl=yate“By all accounts he felt deeply humiliated by his capture and .”

To be fair, there appears to no proof either way. There are two schools of thought. One school believes he was murdered. For the purposes of this thread it is not really relevant how he met his death. There is already a thread on him. He was a complex character.

I mentioned Yate as a high profile example of an Anglo-German (VC winner etc) with an English surname, who was clearly seen as committed to the British cause. His isolation as a POW soon after capture at Le Cateau might have been linked to him being an Anglo-German. It raises questions on how other Anglo-German POWs might have been treated during the Great War. MG

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If you are still on paper books, like me, and have easy access to The Works so that you don't have to pay postage, you can get a copy for £2.99. I tripped over one, literally, this afternoon - they were in a stack under a shelf and one had fallen into the aisle. In view of the recommendation this morning, I bought it.

Liz

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To be fair, there appears to no proof either way.

If there is "no proof either way", then why state he was murdered when it goes in the face of the generally accepted view of events?

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If there is "no proof either way", then why state he was murdered when it goes in the face of the generally accepted view of events?

With respect, I don't think it is 'generally accepted'. Can we agree to disagree on this aspect?, or at least debate it on the Yate thread as it is not really relevant to this thread. I will add a caveat. MG

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With respect, I don't think it is 'generally accepted'. Can we agree to disagree on this aspect?, or at least debate it on the Yate thread as it is not really relevant to this thread. I will add a caveat. MG

I'm more than happy to accept to accept the newly caveated version since he has indeed been alledged to have been murdered. It's just not a view I subscribe to, since the main account by Reverend O’Rorke of his supposedly being shot whilst escaping reads more like a sop to his family than any true account of events, and none of the only workman witnesses to Yates' later apparent suicide appear to have given any accounts that contradict this view.

As to "generally accepted", I would say Wikipedia provides a very good marker as to what is generally believed by the majority of people, even if not necessarily correct every time, and Yates entry has suicide. That and the fact it's a view shared by Richard van Emden, who I would consider a published author who generally knows what he's talking about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Allix_Lavington_Yate

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I am also interested how the German parents were treated. Is there any remote chance a German parent would be interned whilst their son was fighting for the British? What happened to German born residents in the UK during the war.

It did happen apparently : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/nl/contributions/3969

(This reply, for some reason, does not allow me to copy/paste, so you'll have to click the link)

And wasn't there a German officer with an impossibly English sounding name, but German through and through ? (Or was that WW2?)

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It did happen apparently : http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/nl/contributions/3969

(This reply, for some reason, does not allow me to copy/paste, so you'll have to click the link)

And wasn't there a German officer with an impossibly English sounding name, but German through and through ? (Or was that WW2?)

You may be thinking of the Second war Kriegsmarine officer Alistair MacLean.

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You may be thinking of the Second war Kriegsmarine officer Alistair MacLean.

Hardly an English-sounding name! Scottish through and through.

Ron

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Hardly an English-sounding name! Scottish through and through.

Ron

One thinks of Malcolm MacDonald - 5 for England versus Cyprus! And back on-topic, the other Supermac, born in London, Grenadier Guards during the GW.

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This is from memory several years out, but there is a book by the German officer who was the "official" captor of Fort Douamont at Verdun, von Brandis. Forgot the title.

He was in Britain as the war started, and he scrambled mightily to get back to Germany, in which he succeeded. He also described German demonstrations in London as the war started.

Also describes an earlier trip to Britain, in which he and an odd old German officer kayaked about the British Isles and did a bit of spying in the process. A good read.

Off Topic, but in WW II my father worked for the US Navy in a combat zone, having served in the German Army in the Great War; various problems, and finally a Naval Intelligence officer

attempted to put my mother and I in a US concentration camp. My father used to say: "The term 'Naval Intelligence' is an oxymoron." He harassed the German-Americans working there and

my father managed to "accidentally" injure him twice.

Bob Lembke

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