3 Gordon Highlanders, circa 1914? Are they bandsmen?

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks again Frogsmile, Chris, Gordon92 and Hazel C...!

Just to summarise the information as I understand it:

The uniforms appear to be genuine.

The plain glengarries and the plaid are unusual given that these men are not pipers, but neither is exceptional (there are other examples of them being worn by non-pipers)

Slade-Wallace belts do not date the photos, nor do the frocks.

These men appear to belong to some form of part-time or reserve unit, and the fact that Ward is wearing long service chevrons would rule out TF or Volunteers. Presumably all other aspects of uniform would be consistent with them belonging to the SR or Militia.

If Hird's date of birth was 1889, then judging by his appearance in the photo in post #1 he would have been no younger than about 20 (probably older, I'd say - maybe more likely about 22 or 23), in which case the photos must date from no earlier than about 1908/09, and perhaps as late as 1911/12 (or maybe even later). Does anyone have any thoughts as to how these approximate dates would fit with these uniforms assuming that they are SR or Militia......?

Edit: I just realized that Hird would be too young to be a Special Reservist, surely?

I won't be able to download their service records until tomorrow at the earliest, hopefully they may provide some further context. Their RNR service numbers indicate that they served with the RNR Trawler Section (which could match the fact that they were from Hull as well as the fact that these photos were taken in Aberdeen). The Trawler Section came into being in 1910, btw.

I have been thinking overnight about the Militia/Special Reserve possibilities and fear that I might have inadvertently set a hare running. I had lost sight of the fact that the whole purpose of good conduct badges (stripes) was to recognise and reward men who lived 24/7 within the relatively harsh discipline of a British Army unit, especially infantry. As such this did not apply to militiamen unless they were embodied and so I believe it extremely unlikely that the Militia/Special Reserve awarded good conduct badges.

This rather sets things back a bit and leaves us looking more towards the likelihood of the man with three good conduct badges having been a regular. It might be that all three men were ex-regulars who completed the then standard 5-years with the colours and 7-years with the regular reserve, who were then perhaps mobilised from the Merchant Marine in 1914. Alternatively the two men in frocks, plaids and old style brooches could be militiamen and the man in tunic a regular, thus explaining the good conduct badges. He might also have been one of a set number of regulars on the 'permanent staff' establishment of a Militia/Special Reserve Battalion.

As such it seems to me that the photos are pre-war (probably before 1908 due to frocks and plain glengarries) and have perhaps been annotated subsequently with the Merchant Marine rates at which the men subsequently served before being recalled to the colours. I am unsure what the position would have been vis-a-vis 'reserved occupations'.

The 3rd (Militia/Special Reserve) Battalion Gordon Highlanders was formed in 1881-82 from the previous Aberdeenshire Militia and Royal Aberdeenshire Highlanders. There is mention of their barracks being in King Street, Aberdeen. The battalion was embodied (mobilised) on 4 Aug 1914 and remained at Aberdeen throughout the war.

[headgardener]

This rather sets things back a bit and leaves us looking more towards the likelihood of the man with three good conduct badges having been a regular. It might be that all three men were ex regulars who completed the then standard 5-years with the colours and 7-years with the regular reserve, who were then perhaps mobilised from the Merchant Marine in 1914.

As such it seems to me that the photos are pre-war and have perhaps been annotated subsequently with the Merchant Marine rates at which the men subsequently served before being recalled to the colours. I am unsure what the position would have been vis-a-vis 'reserved occupations'.

Thanks for your advice, it certainly makes sense. Eric Ward is the one with the GC stripes and his uniform is certainly different from the other two so I think this would support the notion that his service was different in some way to the others - perhaps he was a recalled reservist and the others volunteered to join up alongside him (possibly in the SR?) at the outbreak of war. The annotations on the reverse of each card certainly indicate that their enlistment was linked. The fact that Craggill wrote the word 'Chief' underneath his name on the front of the card suggests to me that they had been working together prior to these photos being taken. It's interesting that I can find RNR records for the other two but not for Ward.

Apologies for hair-splitting, but I don't think there were 'reserved' occupations in WW1. A class of 'registered' occupation came into existence after the advent of conscription - essentially a form of periodically renewable exemption based on the man's perceived 'value' in his civilian occupation.

[headgardener]

As such it seems to me that the photos are pre-war (probably before 1908 due to frocks and plain glengarries) and have perhaps been annotated subsequently with the Merchant Marine rates at which the men subsequently served before being recalled to the colours. I am unsure what the position would have been vis-a-vis 'reserved occupations'.

The 3rd (Militia/Special Reserve) Battalion Gordon Highlanders was formed in 1881-82 from the previous Aberdeenshire Militia and Royal Aberdeenshire Highlanders. There is mention of their barracks being in King Street, Aberdeen.

Just noticed your edit - if the pics were earlier than '08 then Hird would only be 18 or younger in the photo, which I doubt. And Craggill looks much more like a man of about 30 rather than someone in his mid-20's.

[FROGSMILE]

Just noticed your edit - if the pics were earlier than '08 then Hird would only be 18 or younger in the photo, which I doubt. And Craggill looks much more like a man of about 30 rather than someone in his mid-20's.

Yes, those are very good points and I cannot reconcile the apparent age discrepancy. Perhaps they were photographed upon mobilisation, but wearing older pattern uniforms to give a more smart appearance. I can't really add anything further based on the visible evidence.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for your advice, it certainly makes sense. Eric Ward is the one with the GC stripes and his uniform is certainly different from the other two so I think this would support the notion that his service was different in some way to the others - perhaps he was a recalled reservist and the others volunteered to join up alongside him (possibly in the SR?) at the outbreak of war. The annotations on the reverse of each card certainly indicate that their enlistment was linked. The fact that Craggill wrote the word 'Chief' underneath his name on the front of the card suggests to me that they had been working together prior to these photos being taken. It's interesting that I can find RNR records for the other two but not for Ward.

Apologies for hair-splitting, but I don't think there were 'reserved' occupations in WW1. A class of 'registered' occupation came into existence after the advent of conscription - essentially a form of periodically renewable exemption based on the man's perceived 'value' in his civilian occupation.

Yes it does seem more likely that Ward was the only ex-regular.

I think you are right that 'reserved occupation' was a later, probably WW2 term. I just meant that with the U-boat campaign our shrinking pool of merchant seamen became ever more important and it is perhaps possible that some of the more skilled men were released from the Army to return to the merchant fleet.

[gordon92]

See this link for a Gordon Highlander at 3rd London General Hospital during WW1 wearing plain glengarry and red serge frock: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-Hospital-Wandsworth-RP-Postcard-Queens-Own-Cameron-Highlander-3-other-Sold-/331409525360?pt=UK_Collectables_Postcards_MJ&hash=item4d298c0a70

[4thGordons]

Interesting badge on the that Glengarry Mike.

Some of the other photos from the same set show "scottish boy scouts" and there is a close up of what might be the same man later in the set also (see notations on the back of the card)

(unrelated to this question: it seems a pity to split this set of photos of the Wandsworth Hospital up)

Chris

[gordon92]

Interesting badge on the that Glengarry Mike.

Some of the other photos from the same set show "scottish boy scouts" and there is a close up of what might be the same man later in the set also (see notations on the back of the card)

(unrelated to this question: it seems a pity to split this set of photos of the Wandsworth Hospital up)

Chris

No idea what the cap badge may be, Chris. It is definitely larger than a jacket button. The other photo of the same man does not help on the badge.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

The hospital was for Territorial Force soldiers apparently. That might explain the badge, as it could relate to an earlier VB/VRC existence with associated insignia?

[gordon92]

The hospital was for Territorial Force soldiers apparently. That might explain the badge, as it could relate to an earlier VB/VRC existence with associated insignia?

That is possible. The glengarry badges for the various Aberdeenshire RV units and the Banffshire RVC were small. The later VB badges were of normal size. Since these small badges of the RVs were circa 1884, I would rate your hypothesis as a longshot, but it is the only rational explanation on the table.

[mysie]

My husband who is from Aberdeen was under the impression that the old Militia Barracks in King Street closed away back in the late 1890's

.The Castlehill Barracks where the infantry were stationed closed in the mid 1930's and was then used for housing before being knocked down for the high flats that stand there today.For the people who know Aberdeen if you drive out King Street the old barracks were where the bus depot now stands .

Mary.

Edited 23 December , 2014 by mysie

[4thGordons]

Here's the detail from the other listing (it looks like a mini gordons badge...maybe)

Interestingly he appears to have a tartan tie on (not a red tie).

If it is a wartime image a plain glen is not a mystery... its the earlier images that are more mysterious

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

My husband who is from Aberdeen was under the impression that the old Militia Barracks in King Street closed away back in the late 1890's

.The Castlehill Barracks where the infantry were stationed closed in the mid 1930's and was then used for housing before being knocked down for the high flats that stand there today.For the people who know Aberdeen if you drive out King Street the old barracks were where the bus depot now stands .

Mary.

Yes Mary, in King Street, Aberdeen the First Grampian Bus Group had a depot and station. The building was originally a militia barracks from the 1860's. In 1914 the building was transferred over to the Aberdeen Corporation Tramways and was temporarily transferred back to the military during the First World War.

Here's the detail from the other listing (it looks like a mini gordons badge...maybe)

Interestingly he appears to have a tartan tie on (not a red tie).

If it is a wartime image a plain glen is not a mystery... its the earlier images that are more mysterious

Chris

Given the shortage of badges at the beginning of WW1 (supply not at first meeting demand), could the small badge be from a sporran cantle, or the centre of a plaid brooch?

[FROGSMILE]

That is possible. The glengarry badges for the various Aberdeenshire RV units and the Banffshire RVC were small. The later VB badges were of normal size. Since these small badges of the RVs were circa 1884, I would rate your hypothesis as a longshot, but it is the only rational explanation on the table.

Yes looking in my Bloomer book I can see that the RV unit badges that you mention fit the bill, but so too does the pre-1881 Gordon (92nd) Highlanders Glengarry badge. At the beginning of the war they quickly ran out of modern badges and all sorts of older insignia was pressed into service until the badge makers could catch up with demand.

[gordon92]

Here's the detail from the other listing (it looks like a mini gordons badge...maybe)

Interestingly he appears to have a tartan tie on (not a red tie).

If it is a wartime image a plain glen is not a mystery... its the earlier images that are more mysterious

Chris

In looking at this photo, the badge appears to be a small stag's head embedded on a solid disk possibly within a circlet or garter. The glengarry is of solid color with a rosette of the style used by the Cameron Highlanders.

The match for this could be a helmet plate center for the 6th (Donside) VB Gordon Highlanders (later 6th Bn TF) in alignment with Frogsmile's original hypothesis; it is not a perfect match but close. See scan below from Bloomer Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments, 1982.

Yes looking in my Bloomer book I can see that the RV unit badges that you mention fit the bill, but so too does the pre-1881 Gordon (92nd) Highlanders Glengarry badge. At the beginning of the war they quickly ran out of modern badges and all sorts of older insignia was pressed into service until the badge makers could catch up with deman

Yes, Bloomer is the best reference for Scottish badges. Do you have both volumes? Scottish Regimental Badges and Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments? The former includes Commonwealth regiments.

[gordon92]

Here's the detail from the other listing (it looks like a mini gordons badge...maybe)

Interestingly he appears to have a tartan tie on (not a red tie).

If it is a wartime image a plain glen is not a mystery... its the earlier images that are more mysterious

Chris

Is it possible that an orange and black diced glengarry, worn at some point by at least two of the VBs, would show up on an orthochromatic image as solid?

[4thGordons]

Is it possible that an orange and black diced glengarry, worn at some point by at least two of the VBs, would show up on an orthochromatic image as solid?

The colours would both appear dark and thus may not be clearly discernible (so that is a maybe!) but I think one would be able to see the texture difference between the main body "felt" of the glengarry and the "knit" texture of the band even if the colour differences were instinct on these pictures they are pretty clear images.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

In looking at this photo, the badge appears to be a small stag's head embedded on a solid disk possibly within a circlet or garter. The glengarry is of solid color with a rosette of the style used by the Cameron Highlanders.

The match for this could be a helmet plate center for the 6th (Donside) VB Gordon Highlanders (later 6th Bn TF) in alignment with Frogsmile's original hypothesis; it is not a perfect match but close. See scan below from Bloomer Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments, 1982.

Yes, Bloomer is the best reference for Scottish badges. Do you have both volumes? Scottish Regimental Badges and Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments? The former includes Commonwealth regiments.

Not both volumes sadly, just the Scottish Regimental Badges. The second is so far prohibitively expensive until a rich relative dies and leaves me a bequest

[gordon92]

Not both volumes sadly, just the Scottish Regimental Badges. The second is so far prohibitively expensive until a rich relative dies and leaves me a bequest

Bought mine about 20 years ago for £8. You can have my copy when I snuff it!

[high wood]

Just noticed your edit - if the pics were earlier than '08 then Hird would only be 18 or younger in the photo, which I doubt. And Craggill looks much more like a man of about 30 rather than someone in his mid-20's.

William Craggill was born in Hull on the 10th November 1882. On the 1911 census he is listed as a Marine Engineer living in Swansea. William Berriman Hird, also born in Hull is listed as a Trimmer, fish traveller.

[headgardener]

Yes, those are very good points and I cannot reconcile the apparent age discrepancy. Perhaps they were photographed upon mobilisation, but wearing older pattern uniforms to give a more smart appearance. I can't really add anything further based on the visible evidence.

William Craggill was born in Hull on the 10th November 1882. On the 1911 census he is listed as a Marine Engineer living in Swansea. William Berriman Hird, also born in Hull is listed as a Trimmer, fish traveller.

Thank you both for your comments. The confirmation of their d.o.b.'s does appear to confirm that the photos were taken sometime about 1912-14. I'm guessing it's most likely late 1914, and Ward was being mobilized while Craggill and Hird had joined up alongside him having previously been serving on the same trawler together.

Many thanks to 4th Gordons and Gordon92 for the other interesting comments about highland uniform - such a complex subject! I have some more photographic conundrums relating to highland uniform - I must dig them out and post them on here sometime...!

[rolt968]

It's pure speculation, but I had wondered about Craggill and Hird working on trawlers.

In the early days of the Aberdeen trawler fleet a number of crewmen came from England (& Wales)

In 1900 an Aberdeen trawler was wrecked at St Fergus. Five of the crew of eight came from Yarmouth.

My main source for this is The Real Price of Fish by George Ritchie.

Annoyingly I cannot find it but there is another entry where Ritchie points out that a newspaper report of a trawler crewman's being English was not reliable as he might have been settled in Aberdeen for some time and there was a tendency in some quarters in the early days to think that trawlermen were of English origin.

Craggill and Hird could also have been working on trawlers which fished out of Aberdeen but were registered elsewhere.

In either case it would give them time to be Volunteers or Miltiamen in Aberdeen.

The RNR Trawler Section was formed in 1910.

R.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you both for your comments. The confirmation of their d.o.b.'s does appear to confirm that the photos were taken sometime about 1912-14. I'm guessing it's most likely late 1914, and Ward was being mobilized while Craggill and Hird had joined up alongside him having previously been serving on the same trawler together.

Yes, I think you have summed up the most likely scenario very well.

[gordon92]

Thank you both for your comments. The confirmation of their d.o.b.'s does appear to confirm that the photos were taken sometime about 1912-14. I'm guessing it's most likely late 1914, and Ward was being mobilized while Craggill and Hird had joined up alongside him having previously been serving on the same trawler together.

Many thanks to 4th Gordons and Gordon92 for the other interesting comments about highland uniform - such a complex subject! I have some more photographic conundrums relating to highland uniform - I must dig them out and post them on here sometime...!

Would be interested in seeing your further "highland uniform conundrums."

[Ron Abbott]

I have 3 separate photos (which I found together) of some Gordon Highlanders, but there are several details about their uniforms that puzzle me and I'd be grateful for any thoughts or advice.

The images were taken at a studio in Aberdeen, and appear to date from about 1914 imho. The men all appear to be wearing Slade-Wallace belts, so I'm guessing that they're volunteers in a Gordon Highlanders service battalion or a TF battalion. I also suspect that they are sailors in civilian life as the first card (signature looks like 'W. Craggill') is marked "Chief" (presumably Chief Engineer), the second which is signed 'W.B. Hird' is marked "2nd Engineer", while the third is signed 'Eric Ward' and is marked "Cook". There are no other annotations.

They are all wearing plain Glengarries, kilts, sporrans, hose and spats. Ward is wearing a full dress doublet while Craggill and Hird appear to be wearing frocks. Craggill and Hird are also wearing plaids. Ward's jacket has 3 inverted chevrons on the lower left sleeve which I associate with a bandsman, and I can't see them being good conduct chevrons as he doesn't seem old enough to have served that long. They're all taken in the same studio, apparently at the same time, but the props in Ward's photo are different.

The presence of the plaid makes me think they're bandsmen, but I can't find any reference to them in Seton ("Pipes of War").

I've looked for MIC's but can't find any of them, and am now thoroughly perplexed! Does anyone have any thoughts on this....?!

Craggill.jpgHird.jpgWard.jpg

Whoever they are, they do not know how to put a plaid on properly.

To elaborate....that bit hanging down the front? It shouldn't be there. That piece of material is pulled back under the material which is presently hanging at the backs of the men (but hidden from view in the photos) and it then either hangs loose at the back of the man or is tucked into the waistbelt. Meanwhile the material that is already at the back (currently hidden from view) is then pulled over and the plaid brooch then inserted through the lot to hold it in place. That piece brought forward is what then hangs at the side/partly at front dependent on regimental custom. The plaid is thus worn properly.

OK not a good explanation.....but anyone on here who is/has been a military piper or even a civilian piper who has worm full dress, should understand exactly what I mean.

Why would a Gordon Highlander have his photo taken with a plaid only half done up and the plaid brooch attached before the plaid has been properly done up?

Not only the lack of wings/shells that should go with a pipers' plain glengarry, the lack of blackcock feathers, the lack of pipers cross belt and waist belt/buckle/no dirk etc.......it's their presumed ignorance at knowing how to wear a plaid that does it for me........these are not Gordon Highlanders, regular or militia.