Transfering from 12th to 11th Royal Fusiliers (London Brigade)

[MartinLepley]

Hi,

I am reseraching Henry Edwin LAZELL (G/2897) from Canvey Island who obtained the 15 Star in the 12th Royal Fusiliers, however succumbed on 4 November 1916 in the 11th Royal Fusiliers.

QUESTION :

How can I find out when he transfered from the 12th to the 11th Bn? Regimental museums generally tend not to like questions regarding individuals, and wondered whether there is some information out there.

He was buried in Regina Trench Cemetery, Grandcourt.

I was unable to find service history records in "Ancestry.com" although may re-visit them at a later date to double check as I do find their search facility a bit quirky.

Thanks

Martin Lepley

[Stebie9173]

Fortunately the Royal Fusiliers medal rolls state dates served with each battalion.

In Edwin Lazell's case this was:

12th Battalion 1-9-1915 to 22-10-1915

11th Battalion 5-9-1916 to 5-9-1916

Steve.

[MartinLepley]

Thank-you so much Steve.

You say Edwin Lazell, but my lad is "Henry Edwin Lazell" I assume he has the same service number and as such the same person.

In the 11th Battalion the start and end dates appear to be the same, Is this correct?

There is also a gap between 22 October 1915 and 5th September 1916. Would some kind of home leave between changing battalions explain this?

Out of interest, where do you gain access to the Medal Rolls? Are they on Ancestry.com ?

Thanks again

Martin Lepley

The dates between 12th and 11th too long to be home leave. I wonder if he was wounded

[Stebie9173]

Oops,

My mistake(s)! More haste, more errors... Typing whilst supposedly working! It is Henry Edwin Lazell and the last date was 4-11-1916.

Yes they are on Ancestry. (At least on the UK site, they are)

My interpretation is that he was wounded in October 1915 and evacuated to the UK for treatment and then reposted to the 11th battalion.

Here is the link~:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=iwoservicemedalawardrolls&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&MS_AdvCB=1&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=henry+edwin&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=lazell&gsln_x=XO&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=5k3&cp=11

Steve.

[MartinLepley]

Thanks again

The final date now tallies with his death.

I was also wondering the wounded route also. This puts a completely different perspective on the man's service now. Before I knew he joined up late 1914/ early 1915 and died late 1916.

I wonder if the second "tour" is as a result of the compulsary conscription, or his wound really did take a year to recover.

I am sure there is more to discover here.

Martin

[johnboy]

From 11RF war diary

10/9/16 20 OR joined the battalion at Ribeaucourt. Probably your man was one after being at rest/training camp.

No specific casualties for 4/11/16 mentioned. A summary for period 1/11/16 - 6/11/16 shows 7 or killed.

[MartinLepley]

John Boy,

Where did you get this information from? I have the 11th (service) Bn Royal Fusiliers war diary (WO-95-2045-1_1.pdf) and on the 10/9/1916 I cannt find these words.

Thanks

Martin

[MartinLepley]

I see now. There is a mistake in the Diary (on page 73/190) of WO-95-2045-1_1.pdf the date you say is as read (10-9-1916) but this date should read 10/10/16 in fact all the months should be october here. Looks like there are some pen corrections on the page in blue ink.

In summary your words were right but (correcting the writer's mistake) this happened on 10/10/1916)

[johnboy]

It was the entry on the page that seemed uncorrected.

Your man was originally buried at map ref R.17.57.d exhumed and reburied.

If you post for info on the map reference you might get an exact place of burial.

[MartinLepley]

Was the burial info also on the Medal rolls?

[MartinLepley]

I am also wondering whether the Trench map reference was actually R.17.d.57, this would give complete tranchmap reference of (57.d.SE).R.17.d.57

This certainly looks like where he would have fallen, and also very near to Regina Trench Cenetary where he now resides.

[johnboy]

Your interpretation of the map ref is probably correct. The ref I gave is the one shown on Grave Registration doc.

[BarryF]

I've attached a trench map extract for Le Sars 57D SE2 and 57CSW1 that includes squares R17 and R23. I thought Regina Trench Cemetery was in the vicinity of R17a - a long way down the track from the Courcelette Road which I thought you left at about R22.b.5.5. But the Graves Registration Report Form places Regina Trench at 57D R23.a.3.1. I'm probably mistaken and I am sure somebody on the forum will be able to clarify the locations.

If you let me know your interest in H E Lazell, I may be able to provide more info and images/scans - I have been researching 12RF for some time. It was my father's battalion. He went out with my dad on the SS "The Queen" and may have been wounded at Loos 25-28th September 1915. So my only images that may relate to, or contain, HEL will be from their time while training in the UK. The War Graves Photographic Project have a very good image of his headstone.

Barry

Edited 19 December , 2014 by BarryF

[BarryF]

Here's a better trench map extract that helps clarify locations up to a point.

Barry

[Ron Clifton]

Was the burial info also on the Medal rolls?

Martin

No, it wouldn't be. The roll would probably show that he had died, so the medals would be sent to his next of kin, but even the date of death is unlikely to be given.

Ron

[Stebie9173]

The burial site is in his CWGC entry - see the "Concentration" Tab at the bottom of his page.

The medal roll does show his date of death, and being a London/Royal Fusiliers medal roll shows his dates of overseas service.

I am of the opinion that his service would have been continuous - most men took somewhere around about a year to be discharged for non-amputation injuries (my rule of thumb, anyway, but always subject to variations). After wounding a man could expect to be evacuated from France/Flanders within a few days (sometimes a few weeks longer, or not at all if the wounds were light). On arrival home he would be posted to his Regiment Depot for pay purposes and sent physically to a hospital. Once discharged from hospital after treatment and convalescence he would receive ten days home leave and then be posted to either a Command Depot (for toughening up with route marches, massage/physiotherapy to rebuild muscles and other rehabilitation methods). Once fit for at least home service he would be posted to one of his Regiment's Reserve battalions in the UK and reported for service there until fit for overseas service. He would then be sent to an Infantry Base Depot in France for posting onto a battalion at the front - he could have been allocated to any battalion of the Royal fusiliers before going overseas and it was possible to transfer to an entirely different Regiment at the Base Depot.

Steve.

[MartinLepley]

Barry,

My interest with Henry Edwin Lazell was because I was researching all the people on Canvey Island's Great war memorial. I created a play from my research called "Canvey's Great War" all profits from which will be given to charity. inclidentally I belong to an amateur Dramatics group. www.CastAndCrew.org.uk

I have now been in contact by a relative of this man, and I wanted to find out more about him to pass to the relatives. I have a general interest to "finish off" the research in to all the men linked to Canvey during the Great War. I did Manage to find a picture of Henry Edwin Lazell which the family are particularly keen to receive as they had never seen a picture of him before, and apparently there is a living relative who looks a lot like him.

I believe Private Lazell died at the battle of Ancre Heights. He arrived in the trenches (for a 3 day tour) when an explosion hit his trench and he sadly died.

All information will be gladly received. my home email is "s DOT lepley AT tiscali DOT co DOT uk"

OldSweat helped me understand when he changed from 12th Battalion to 11th Battalion, and puts a new light on his experiences and I agree, he probably did get wounded at Loos.