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Remembered Today:

Courcelette september 1916


amblevem
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Hi,


The brother of my grandmother was a prussian musketeer of the Fourth Army (7th Division - 13 th Brigade - IR 26)


His name was Delges Christian (11.05.1896 - 26.09.1916), born in Recht (now Belgium - Prussia till 1919).


He died in or around Courcelette the 26th september 1916 between 2 and 3 PM.


Is it possible to know in wich sector or trench was IR 26 this day?


Does someone have maps or any other informations about IR 26 or the events that happened this day?


At this day I don't know where he was buried. Perhaps does someone know in wich cemetery where buried german killed soldiers in Courcelette?


Thx for any information

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Good Morning Amblevem.

You start your search already with lots of information about Christian.

I have just done a search on this forum and someone has a copy of the regimental history for IR26.

I am sure AOK4 always reads these threads.

 

2 reports for him in the Verlustlisten.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4995613

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/8495880

Martin

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There's no listing for Christian Delges on the VdK database, so it would appear that he doesn't have a named grave. I seem to remember that the Germans were driven out of Courcelette on about 15 September.

In the absence of any other information about your great-uncle, the best place to visit in remembrance of him might be the big German concentration cemetery at Fricourt.

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I checked the German War Graves site and they have no record of a burial, which is not unusual. Your relative might be in a grave marked as unknown or not yet found. I have the history of the regiment, once I get back from work I will see if there are any maps that might help.

Ralph

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Regimental history for IR26 from AOK4 would interest me very much.

The 26th September 1916 the germans were still around Courcelettes.

Thx to Martin Feledziak and Siege Gunner for their responses

Any further informations interest me

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The Germans still held positions in the immediate vicinity of Courcelette on 26 September. The 1st and 2nd Canadian Divisions attacked on the 26th at 12:35 pm, as part of the larger Battle of Thiepval, which resulted in a German retreat back to the Regina Trench position.

You can find more about the attack in the Canadian Official History, which you can download at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/oh-ho/detail-eng.asp?BfBookLang=1&BfId=22. There is a more recent account in Tim Cook's At the Sharp End.

Regards

Bill Stewart

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The next few scans are from the section of the history for 29 September 1916. The last portion are taken from the history where they had diary entries from Privatdozent, Oberarzt der Reserve Dr. Holfelder.


next page


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Many, many thanks to all those who replied.

@ Ralph J. Whitehead : fantastic the map and the scanned pages.

@ JWK : Yes I know it and Delges Heinrich was the brother of Christian, he died in Noyon.

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I had a relation who died at Courcelette...'in the field' at the moment but can see if I have any materials at home that may be of interest.

Daniel

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So, back home. My relation who died at Courcelette died eight days before your man did, and was a part of the C.E.F. (Samuel Voysey, Private, 60th Battalion, C.E.F.). In researching him I was kindly given by a fellow pal this trench map of the area where he died:

post-32240-0-76017000-1418492912_thumb.j

Hope this helps!

-Daniel

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Yes that's service!

Thanks too ph0ebus for the trench map.

The map from Ralph J. Whitehead is excellent there I can see that my relative surely died in Zollern Graben, Staufen Riegel or Courcelette Riegel.

I had no time to read the scanned pages at the moment.

If I find something in it, I'll report it.

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It looks as if the Sackgasse and Staufengraben came under heavy artillery fire from 3.30 pm and probably under fire before then. It is most likely that your relative was killed by artillery fire.

Ralph

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Christian Delges died the 26th september, the scans are beginning the 29th september.

@ Ralph J. Whitehead : IR 26 came to Courcelette sector the 17th september coming from the east of Arras. Would it be possible (if there are not too many pages) to have the scans from the 16th to the 28 september? And I can not read very good the date on the Map "Anmerkungen : Gefechtsstreifen bis 2?.9.1916". Is it 22 or 29.09?

I have two more questions :

-Christian was 18 years at the beginning of WW I. At which age a prussian soldier was incorporated?

-How many men and bataillons where in an "Infanterie Regiment"?

Thx

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Good Questions amblevem.

From readings I have seen, and in very basic terms, a Rifle Regiment could contain 3 Battalions.

Commanded by a Major.

Each Battalion was made up from companies.

1 Battalion had companies numbered 1 - 4

2 Battalion had companies numbered 5 - 8

3 Battalion had companies numbered 9 - 12

Then each company is made up of 5 Officers and 250 men commanded by a Captain.

So very roughly a regiment could be anything from 2,500 to 3,500 men.

I understand that during peacetime men were called up at age 20 for national service.

They could however volunteer at age 17.

There were many variations but I think these are just rough estimates.

In war time anything could happen.

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The dates on the upper part of the map show the battle line on 21/9/16 and then the battle line from 21/9/16, denoted by the different markings on the map. As your relative was 18 at the start of the war, he probably did not join the army until late 1915/early 1916. I t is possible he was a replacement for the casualties suffered in the earlier fighting. The time your relative was killed was the third time the regiment had served on the Somme and the regiment had suffered a number of losses prior to this time and then during the first two tours.

I will scan the sections you are looking for as well as the earlier periods for 1916. It is too bad the Stammrolle are gone, they would have provided a great deal of information as to when he joined, his training period, when he was posted to the regiment, etc.

Ralph

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There is another reason to believe your relative was called up with his normal class, in this case between August and November 1915 and after a period of training he would proceed tot the Recruit Depot and then assigned to a regiment. As his rank was Musketier, he would most likely be called up with his class, not earlier or his designation would be different.

Ralph

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These are very interesting informations.

How long was the training period?

Prussian soldiers from Malmedy - Sankt-Vith used to serve in IR 29, other Regiments from the Rheinland were 25-28 and 30. How did he come in IR 26?

I'm impatient to see the next scans from Ralph :P

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Another good question Amblevem

And the answer would be interesting to me.

My Grandfather was from the Prussian Province of Pozen ( Old Poland ) but he appears on the casualty lists with IR171 which was from the Alsace Lorraine area, many miles from home.

The local Regiment for him would have been IR49.

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Fritz Limbach, from Barmen/Wuppertal, was in training with IR 56 (from Wesel).

After being shipped out to the front he was assigned to IR 16 (from Cologne)

Both are Westphalian regiments.

It's just a matter of which Regiment needed the most men at the time the soldier came out of training I guess....

How however a soldier from Pozen = Armeekorps V ends up in Colmar = Armeekorps XV on the other side of the country: I haven't got a clue.

Maybe he signed up there, because he was there for studies or work?

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I will have the other scans requested this evening. In regard to the training, the Class of 1916 was involved in training from 4-5 months on average before being assigned to a regiment. The replacement system was designed to provide replacements to units from the home district and during peacetime this was not an issue. When was broke out the system was altered to meet requirements of the time.

If a division, corps, etc. suffered heavy losses and did not have sufficient men in the depot system, men from other Recruit depots would be transferred in. There is no way to accurately predict where a man would end up. This was much the same for corps marked uniforms and equipment. While it was followed in peacetime, when war broke out the system was stressed and equipment was distributed where needed.

When men were wounded and treated in field hospitals, it would normally be one associated with the division or corps yet there were times that men were treated in hospitals of neighboring divisions or corps. It would be great to his Stammrolle entries to get all of the facts quickly and far easier than trying to piece them together decades later.

Ralph

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Here are the pages showing the deployment of the regiment, please note that it was involved in mine warfare as well as three tours on the Somme.

Ralph


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