Index to be released of pre 1901 DoB service records still held by MoD

[David_Underdown]

It is also interesting to know that the 1939 National Identity Card register will be released on Find My Past later this year (at least for individuals born prior to 1914). Trying to get any sense of progress and release dates from a site like Find My Past on major projects is often difficult.

Regards

Justin

I should say that the release date is not absolutely fixed yet. Much still to do before then. More details will start to appear over the next few months.

[researchingreg]

Greg

Who did your grandfather, William Donald Wareham, serve with after 1920. It does not appear to be The Queen's.

Bootneck

He was with 2/4 Bn Queens Royal West Surreys serving in the BAOR in 1919. I have a photo of him dated 15 May 1919 at Blissenbach and another in Cologne dated 1919 as far as I know he stayed in the Army. He could have gone to another Regiment I suppose, but I know he served in Ireland in a Police capacity after leaving the Army, but where an when I don't know. I think he was in Ulster because he used to talk about the smuggling across the border.

Geoff

[generalist]

On reflection, I do wonder how the MoD has actually derivd the dates of birth. Few of the First World War enlistment forms I've seen actually request the soldier's DoB, often you see only age (the TF forms don't even have this, so all you get is the "apparent age" recorded by the MO during the medical examination), which may only be in years, though on occasion you do you get years, months, days or just years and days. Of course from the latter you can derive a DoB, but it might explain the underreporting of 29 February if MoD simply assumed February always has 28 days, and possibly some of the other anomalies could be down to decisions on how ages with just years and months were treated

I've been wondering about this as well. The Canadian records appear to have had birth-date recorded on enlistment, from 1914 through to 1918, so I'm confident the pattern we see there is a definite result of self-reporting. The similar patterns for British records suggest a similar ultimate cause, but where it actually enters the records is an open question.

Given that the index is assembled from "closed" personnel files, rather than just enlistment papers, a date might appear through any or all of the following:

• recorded on enlistment in WWI (apparently unlikely)
• estimated by a War Office clerk at or just after enlistment
• added to the files during service for various bureaucratic reasons
• recorded at re-enlistment in 1919/20 (or even re-enlistment in 1939, for younger men...) - Justin notes above this would mean a new form which did ask for DoB
• recorded at discharge (say for pension entitlement purposes)
• added at some point following discharge (ditto)

More thinking certainly to be done. I'll let you both know if I have an epiphany :-)

David - thanks for the pointer to the other TNA records. I'll look into these. My gut feeling is that the 1939 registry is marginally more likely to be "correct" - closer to reality - than the earlier records, but it would be interesting to see if that is true.

Andrew

[Justinth]

Andrew & David

Just to add to the evidence, the B111 short service attestation form from 1914 http://www.historylinksarchive.org.uk/picture/number5473.asp which asks for months and days.

I have also seen evidence from other forms (that just ask for 'Years' and 'Months') of either extra information being added in such as this example (I have used the surname Nash to make a small sample) for Francis Nash from 1914, where the the form is filled in with extra information, in this case next to the question (it says 'DoB 19 Dcer 1872' on a form B. 248 form (Army Reserve, Special Reserve, One Year's Service), presumably the DoB was more important due to the man's age).

Harry Bennett Nash of the Worcestershire Regiment [9]045 (Form B. 59 Army Reserve, Special Reservists, 6 Years' Service) who enlisted early in 1914 and died following at sometime following his capture at Gallipoli is a good example of where the form specifies year (17) and month but in month the number of months has been crossed through (8) and the number of days added in (246 days). There are also numerous examples where this hasn't been done and the year/month format has been adhered to. Why the difference between forms? It can be guessed with younger soldiers and older soldiers that age becomes more important, but there must be an administrative reason beyond that (see Andrew's post above) that was driving the Army towards recording much more specific ages.

Interestingly Arthur Richard Nash 75852 HLI (B. 2515 Short Service for 2,3 or 4 years with the colours) attests in August 1919, having been discharged from his wartime service in July 1919. The form asks for age in years and days. Such pre 1920 short service attestations following a short gap would therefore be another chance to capture the DoB of the soldier concerned even if they had not been included on their previous attestation. In this case he deserted in October 1919 and so therefore is not amongst the records still held by MoD but it does show how some pre 1920 re-enlistments may have gained DoB even before 1920.

Their also remains the question when form B. 271 (which records specific date of birth) became the main attestation form for the Army (as I said earlier 1927 is the earliest example) I can find publicly available on the net http://www.kingsownm...com/ko2951c.htm as previously mentioned. Re-attestation using this form would also capture DoB data.

If anyone has any other examples of 1919 re-enlistments of WW1 soldiers (in terms of DoB capture) or post 1920 examples of the use of form B. 271 for re-enlistments by ex WW1 soldiers, or similar forms which capture DoB (or alternatively continuing use of the year/month formula) they would be very welcome here.

Regards

Justin

[David_Underdown]

Frederick Ernest Coldman (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/882984) re-enlisted on 9 October 1919, seems to be army form B2515 (though this appears to be a handwritten correction from 2514). His age is given as 33 years 6 months

[Justinth]

Frederick Ernest Coldman (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/882984) re-enlisted on 9 October 1919, seems to be army form B2515 (though this appears to be a handwritten correction from 2514). His age is given as 33 years 6 months

Hi David

Just looked on Find My Past and it is a form B2514-7 in which the number has as you say been crossed out and replaced with B2515 (both 2515 and 2514-7 are 1919 forms), look up Arthur Richard Nash and you will see that the B2515 form as printed (rather than another form re-numbered) asks for Years and Days rather than Years and Months.

It does however suggest that by this point at re-attestation in 1919 that the B2515 may have been seen as the form to use for short service attestations (the B2514-7 before being adapted has 'Until 30th April 1920' on the B2514 originally and then crossed out and changed on Coldman's form to one year) or else why bother to change the number of the form at the top? The form as filled out has simply followed the conventions for B2514 when it comes to age rather than B2515 (all those re-attesting under the actual form B2515 would have captured age and days). It still leaves the question why one form of recording age would be favoured over the other (age and days on B2515, obviously more precise) and also when this became the standard convention after WW1 (still looking for earlier examples of B. 271 than 1927 from the Forum). More work also needs to be done here on re-attestations 1919-1920 (prevalence of form B2515 or other forms).

Justin

[Sue S]

Hi. Just a very basic question. Having downloaded the lists and found someone I am interested in, how and where do I apply for copies? Thanks. Sue

[ss002d6252]

Hi. Just a very basic question. Having downloaded the lists and found someone I am interested in, how and where do I apply for copies? Thanks. Sue

This should tell you how.

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview

Craig

[Sue S]

Thanks. I was hoping that it was somewhere other than Kentigern House as the last papers I asked for took nine months to arrive. Patience is not one of my strong points. Regards and thank again. Sue

[ss002d6252]

Thanks. I was hoping that it was somewhere other than Kentigern House as the last papers I asked for took nine months to arrive. Patience is not one of my strong points. Regards and thank again. Sue

Last one I ordered was a ww2 set which took 6 months or so, and that was before interest took off for the centenary.

Craig

[Sue S]

Just to say thanks for staring this topic. A friend has found 5 out of the 7 people he was looking for. Sods law but I was only looking for one and did not find him. Thanks again Sue

[Guest graham w]

Hi all

I have just received the following response to my FOI about releasing the indexing information for service records retained by MoD prior to 1901 (ref 2014/06919):

'Thank you for your email of the 9 November 2014 asking:

“…….Earlier freedom of information requests have revealed that service file data for all service records held by MOD is computerised and indexed by service number, surname, initials and date of birth. Would the MoD consider releasing this information (probably electronically) as a finding aid for family and researchers wanting to see if WW1 service files have been retained by MoD because of continued service after WW1 (such a release would also comfortably fit within data protection principles)?”

I am treating your correspondence as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

Indexed data relating to service personnel with a date of birth prior to 1901 will be published on the .gov.uk web site. I will separately e-mail you with a link once this is available.

The data is ordered by account and then date of birth. A description of the relevant accounts can also be found on .gov.uk using “MOD collation summary” as a search term.

Approximately 1700 entries have been deleted from the data as errors made when the index was created suggested an actual date of birth of after 1901.'

An earlier FOI gave the number of service records retained with birth dates prior to 1901 as '373417'. Although not the service records themselves the release of the indexing information should be of great interest to all WW1 researchers.

I look forward to the release of the information on the gov.uk web site.

The full response can be seen at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/foi-responses-released-by-mod-week-commencing-1-december-2014 under 'Service personnel indexed data for those with a birth date prior to 1901'.

Regards

Justin

justin i have found a badge that i think may have been my great grandfathers, cameron highlanders and the number is 2922421 J walkinshaw i see you are also researching, can you suggest ways i can find out more please

[charlie962]

I have taken the 8 files fom MoD (well done Justin) and searched for 5 people who should really appear there. I have found 3 records (1 officer ,2 ORs) - still a fantastic result.

I have 'copied' the 8 spreadsheets onto consecutive pages within one Excel file rather than merging them into a single spreadsheet. I wasn't totally confident that I would get one sheet right and it also made me analyse each page separately and notice one or two patterns. It is however possible to search all 8 pages with one search (use control F then see the options). I did find the search was sensative to upper or lower case but it may be possible to get round this ( edit yes I've found the box to tick!);

Question : the first column is headed Account and I wonder if anyone has de-cyphered what this might tell us? For example I think 11001 and 11002 are for Officers records ie the P numbers. But what is the distinction between the 2 accounts ? What is the significance of all the different accounts for the OR's records?

Question: the Name column has a few obvious errors which stand out when you do a Name sort. ie the name is missing, appears in an adjacent column or has there are spelling errors. Has anyone started to collate these and note corrections?

Charlie

[alan jones]

Hello , I have just come across this post and thought I would just add my experience of the records . I applied to the MOD several years ago for my late grandfathers records , he was born 1888 and enlisted November 1914 . The MOD replied and sent me two small slips from the ARMY BOOK 358 which had the barest of information on and an apology that his full service records had not survived and was probably due a pruning by the civil service many years ago .He had stayed on after the war till about 1920 I think . You can only begin to imagine my disgust at the thought of such a " pruning " . Such valuable information lost forever to so many .

Regards

Alan

[TTracer44]

Any body know if there is any thing in place to release records for WW2 of those men with early DOB, ie 1903 when they make the 100 years.

[ss002d6252]

Any body know if there is any thing in place to release records for WW2 of those men with early DOB, ie 1903 when they make the 100 years.

The N/A and the MOD are apparently looking in to the feasibility of releasing further records.

Craig

[TTracer44]

Thanks Craig sounds promising

[Justinth]

See my thread here, responses wanted by MoD to their proposals for the further release of service records:

 

I was involved at an earlier stage of this consultation and amongst other things they need evidence of interest to make it happen.

Regards

Justin

[busterfield]

Hello from someone new to the site and struggling a bit. I've done the gov.uk MOD collation summary and cannot find anything regarding pre 1901 DoB. Is there a link for this dummy to go to.

[Justinth]

Hi Busterfield

The attachments which make up the index can be found if you scroll down the page on the Government website which opens if you click on the link:

'The full response can be seen at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/foi-responses-released-by-mod-week-commencing-1-december-2014 under 'Service personnel indexed data for those with a birth date prior to 1901...'

I know that some members of the Forum have consolidated the different spreadsheets into one.

Regards

Justin

[busterfield]

Many thanks for that Justin,I kept going through thinking I had missed a page somewhere.

[Seany]

This is a great resource - thank you for posting it.

I note that the Officer commanding my battery of interest (293 siege, RGA) is on the list - obtaining those records would add hugely to my research and maybe answer some questions around the 'Reluctant Tommy' discourse.

is there any way, as a non family member that I can access the records?

[Justinth]

This is a great resource - thank you for posting it.

I note that the Officer commanding my battery of interest (293 siege, RGA) is on the list - obtaining those records would add hugely to my research and maybe answer some questions around the 'Reluctant Tommy' discourse.

is there any way, as a non family member that I can access the records?

Did he die more than 25 years ago? See below:

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview

[Seany]

Did he die more than 25 years ago? See below:

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview

thanks Justin this is useful as yes D.O.D more than 25 years - it looks like a family member would get more information so I'm tentatively trying that avenue first

[MaureenE]

This is to add some information from another recent post which suggests that the Ministry of Defence database is now available on Ancestry as the database "UK, Military Indexes, 1920-1971", although the Ancestry page doesn't give specific details.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61448

 

Cheers

Maureen