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Remembered Today:

Gallipoli Trench Map? by John "Jack" Herbert Chapman


sdjknox
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Dear All,

This is a post concerning John "Jack" Herbert Chapman and he was in the Suffolk Regiment. If I have the right information from Ancestry he was in the Reserve Battalion (could this be post WW1 when he applied for his medals). He entered the Gallipoli Campaign 21 October 1915 and again from the Medal information was a 2nd Lt. Surprisingly I couldn't determine his regimental number.


He was an art teacher by "trade" and he studied in London; and trained as an athlete at Stamford Bridge (he was a member of the London AAA). The reason for mentioning this is attached to this post is a precise trench map. There's no indication as to where it was drawn and it's drawn in ink. I don't know whether it is of an actual trench or a theoretical trench system.


Perhaps some GWF members can fill in any gaps about the man and the trench drawing?


Thanks

Steve Knox


Trench Plan reduced (640x452).jpg




post-71386-0-46689900-1417271765_thumb.j

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All the dimensions are very precise and there are no geographical references whatsoever.


This looks like a text-book example of the typical trench system a platoon officer would be expected to dig.


In real life not all the dimensions would conform exactly to the 'text-book' plan and there would be some indication of what was to the Left, Right and Rear. Possibly also a compass bearing or a note of the map square reference (such as 103g6)



I don't know whether it is of an actual trench or a theoretical trench system.


I think that it is the latter



regards


Michael


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21st October 1915 must have been the day that he entered the theatre

The 1/5th Battalion's War Diary notes that he reached them on the 26th October at Dixons Gully

“Quiet day at rest with only small fatigues.”

On 30th October the battalion went back into action at Hill 60

See WO95/4325 image ref 396, pdf page 96

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michaeldr

Thanks for your interest and I am sure your views on the trench map are correct. It does have an element of perfection which has probably never been achieved especially in the Gallipoli campaign.

I am also grateful for your extract from the War Diary. I shall purchase this for further information for his grandson who sent me the map and basic information. Also he has sent me a translation of a personal letter from a Turkish soldier to his family which his grandfather had in his possessions which will be the subject of a later post. I have no idea if this is a letter well known or will be of some interest to the forum.

Kind Regards,

Steve

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Steve,

A reference to Dixon's Gully. "On Nov 5th we were relieved and returned to Dixon's Gully to have our bayonets sharpened and to make preparations for the explosion of the mines on Hill 60.

Some experiences of the 1/5th Bn The Suffolk Regiment T.F. on Gallipoli by Captain E vD Wolton. See the Gallipolian No.47 page 20 which you can view online.

See also British Regiments at Gallipli by Ray Westlake. There is three pages on the 5th which specifically mention Dixon's Gully but more importantly the battalions movements from July to December 1915.

I sure someone can help out with a section of trench map.

LonerangerVC

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LonerangerVC,

Thanks very much for the information, I shall do as you say and broaden my knowledge of the Suffolk Regiment. I have had a morning on the peninsula but I doubt if Dixon's Gully is anyway near where we were near as we concentrated on the Anzac areas and just managed to see Suvla Bay out of the back window of the coach!

Steve

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21st October 1915 must have been the day that he entered the theatre

The 1/5th Battalion's War Diary notes that he reached them on the 26th October at Dixons Gully

“Quiet day at rest with only small fatigues.”

On 30th October the battalion went back into action at Hill 60

See WO95/4325 image ref 396, pdf page 96

Michael,

I went to purchase the National Archives War Diary as I have previously using the reference above and it states that it has not been digitised and therefore cannot be downloaded. I also checked the Forum for War Diaries and can find lots of lists but not the diary I am looking for. Can you guide me in the right direction please as to how you have such a precise reference and knowledge?

Thanks

Steve

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Looking at the file on my machine today suggests that I downloaded it in back 2010. Since then the NA seems to have withdrawn some WDs, perhaps with a view to making more money in the future by selling them via a third party. This subject has been recently touched upon here

 

 

I had a quick look through the WD yesterday and as far as I could tell, there was only one mention of this officer, which was at his arrival.

 

 

 

 

The following is a précis of the 1/5 Suffolk's WD taken from Ray Westlake's book 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' published in 1996 by Leo Cooper, ISBN 0 85052 511 X

 

 

 

This book has always been very useful, but since the withdrawal of the digitised WDs it has become indispensable.

 

 

 

0624a532-c472-4249-aa30-c781fcf888ba_zps

 

 

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It's not easy trying to reconcile the sketch with the map, but I would hazard a guess that Dixon's Gully is one of the small valleys on the seaward side of Damakjelik Bair. This site should have provided shelter from the worst of the Turkish Artillery and may well have been used as a 'rest' position.



23381cc6-480e-457d-a550-b3f5b5144ede_zps



MapHill60_zpsa0fea783.jpg



You will see that the sketch comes from the battalion's history, which it seems can be bought as a reprint from the N & M Press


see https://www.facebook.com/GreatWarBookReviewPage/photos/a.427273294006042.107978.119140851485956/427998550600183/?type=1&theater



Good luck


Michael


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Hi Steve

Dixon's Gully or gorge is at about 92R3 on the Kurija Dere map Michael has posted.

From Aghyl Dere the other side of Walden Pt a track called Stoogers Lane leads roughly NNE into Dixons Gully. The gully to the left of Dixons is called Fremantles Gully. The larger Australia Valley is just east of these. Numerous rest camps, supply depots and HQ for 163rd Brigade, the latter of which was just near the northern end of Dixons, just off to the right in this area of southern Damakjelik Bair.

Hope this helps.

Ian

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Ian,



Many thanks for that precise ref - 92R3


…............................................................




Steve,



have arrowed that point on the map below



3beb0a4d-1aaf-4bb7-8191-720184c99762_zps


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Ah Michael,

If only I could have done that! Thanks for popping it up. Much better.

Cheers

Ian

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Ian,



I wont spoil the effect of your above message


by telling how long it took me to work out how to do that :blush:



It's great to have the Hill 60 expert's in-put here; thanks again


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Ian and Michael,

It is so kind of you both to fill in the massive gaps in my information. I have also managed to find the location of Dixon's Gully on Google Earth which means I passed it by on my coach trip but this is not as impressive as the sketch map and the precise positioning on the contoured map. Now you have placed the 1/5 Suffolks in the locality of Hill 60 I have read some background as to the Australian and British forces action.

Thanks very much for your help.

Steve

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Hi Steve

I forgot to mention I am writing a book on Hill 60. Progress is slow, but steady pulling as much info as I can get from UK on all the Brit and Indian Regiments. Quite a cosmopolitan affair was Hill 60.

If you get to Gallipoli again, it is worth visiting the Hill 60 area, much of it easy to walk, including Damakjelik Bair.

Any first hand accounts of Brits at Hill 60 I am still searching for.

Oh, and Michael. Now I not only respect your knowledge but also your perseverance with computer functions.

Cheers

Ian

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Ian,

I am not surprised the book progress is slow, although the Gallipoli campaign was relatively short a lot happened! Best of luck with it and thanks for taking the time to be involved in my posts. You may find the translated letter of interest which I have recently posted under Letter from Turkish Officer translated Gallipoli December 1915 (1) and (2) in this same forum. I assume it came into John "Jack" Herbert Chapman's possession when he was in the vicinity of Hill 60.

Regards

Steve

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