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P14..?..I am New & having Picture attachment hickups


Jagerdad
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Greetings

I just joined yesterday and have been spending hours upon hours trying to resize pictures to fit. I was given help but I am still struggling. I have acquired what I thought was a P17 and it may be a P14. The man I got it from was told by his wife to get all guns out of the House. He said his Great Grandfather brought the Rifle Home from World War One. He said it is chambered in 303 British and is a Sniper Rifle. I had never know that such Rifles were actually referred to as Sniper Rifles until a week ago. I have been a Sniper and I have been around guns all of my life and attained many things.

I have an assortment of Enfield Rifles that have been converted, decades ago, for local Deer, Bear & Pig Hunting. I built a very special Varmint Rifle using an Enfield action in 22-250 Ackley Imporved and it has consistantly held groups down in .20's and for years. I even have my newest Long Range Rifle built using an Enfield action, also with a Hart heavy barrel but in 7mm Remington Ultra Mag.

I never planned to be using so many Enfields but they just seem to always work. I would like to please ask those of you who can see the attached pictures "If The Did Attach" and let me know what this Rifle is. It has a metal disk on the Left forward side of the stock. Is this part of what I read as being a Volley Sight..? If so, what is missing..?

I did not know how, on this Forum, a person that is new, introduces oneself or asks a question so I just gave what I found, a try. I thank you for any help.

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Welcome Jagerdad,

Sounds like you have a P14, it should have British markings, mine has a large 'broad arrow' near the receiver and of course the 'volley sights' or evidence that they were either there and removed or that they were never fitted but the stock is machined on the left in expectation of them being fitted. I believe that significant numbers of the P14's were brought out of storage and fitted with a 'Weedon' stock that has no volley sights. If you can post some photos of the receiver and the left side of the stock, it would give us a better idea of what you have. Either way congratulations on your rifle.

regards

khaki

just missed your photos before my post.

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This should be the last for now. Thank you very much Khaki for your reply. I hope these pictures shed light on the Rifle. So, should it be in 303..? and not 30-06..?

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It has all the appearances of a P14, and should therefore be in British 303, if you are thinking of shooting it I recommend that you get a competent gunsmith to check it out first.

khaki

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Jagerdad, your P14 rifle appears from the serial number to have been manufactured by Eddystone sometime during 1917. It has the volley sight plate but is missing the dial.

Cheers, S>S

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The rifle pictured is indeed a Pattern 1914 MkI* rifle manufactured by Eddystone (Remington) Arms.

The * indicates lengthened bolt locking lugs.

To be honest I doubt that this rifle was brought home from WWI and it certainly was not a sniper in British service (as a matter of policy the British only used Winchester produced rifles for the MkI*(F) and MkI*(T) rifles.)

The reason I doubt it was brought home from WWI is that it is in the much later (1939-40) Weedon Repair Standard (WRS) format having had the volley sight peep and pointer removed and the pointer base center ground down (which means it will be impossible to replace the pointer and get it to work correctly).

What happened was as WWII loomed the P'14s (by that point officially known as No3 MkI*) rifles were removed from storage and overhauled for issue. This overhaul included removing the parts (as detailed above) and cleaning and repairing as needed. The unit marking disk inletting was also usually filled (as here). If you look on the underside of the pistol grip on the stock you may find a six pointed star over a letter which would indicate where this was done (this mark is sometimes very faint)

The 2 on the body indicates that it has an modification/improvement to the internal magazine and surround to improve ammunition feed. This is usually found on late Eddystone rifles

Quite a number (most sources say 100,000) rifles were supplied direct to India from the US factory (Eddystone) and these too are usually in WRS configuration but without the mark. The reason I mention this is the general appearance of the rifle, the black stoving (paint) finish, the manner of the unit disk fill in and in particular the stenciling on the side of the buttstock look like many of the Indian rifles I have examined.

The P14/M1917 action is a very strong one and used as the basis for lots of conversions as you are probably aware however Khaki's advice to get it checked is wise... it certainly needs to be cleaned, it looks like there is cosmo in lots of the holes.

Chris

Edit

The total Eddystone production was 604940 rifles so as it is serial 563990 I would guess that it was actually produced in late May/June 1917 (in the final months of the production run.)

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The total Eddystone production was 604940 rifles so as it is serial 563990 I would guess that it was actually produced in late May/June 1917 (in the final months of the production run.)

Yes Chris I think you are correct - I have edited my mistake.! But wasn't it reported to be around 100,000 of the P14 rifles that were sent straight to India ... just checking. :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S

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Yes Chris I think you are correct - I have edited my mistake.! But wasn't it reported to be around 100,000 of the P14 rifles that were sent straight to India ... just checking. :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S

Yep, missed an 0! Thanks. I'll correct that.

Sent from Eddystone too according to Ministry of Munitions records.

Chris

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Happy Thanksgiving to everyone who celibrates this day. I gathered additional pictures to help. I believe the Black Paint may be from India. I only had information from the man selling the Rifle. As is the case so often, time and handing a story down through his families generations may have had them believing, well, in what was handed down to them.

I can't express how pleased it makes me to have you fella's taking a moment to enter a comment. I know the Rifle must be cleaned and I have no emotional attachments to it so I have removed the Black Paint where possible, to make it's identification more reliable. One person said this is made for the MkVII 174 Grain BT Bullet ammunition. I will be posting the best image I could get of the sights to maybe learn if the range marks comply with a 303 Britich load of that denomination.

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The rear sight on a Pattern 14 is marked from 200 to 1650 yards and is indeed calibrated for the .303 MkVII ball ammunition.

It should also be serial numbered to the rifle (on the rear at the top). The E you show indicates Eddystone production.

The "Battle Sight" peep (usable when the leaf is folded down) is zeroed at 300yds.

The M1917 rear sight is graduated 200-1600yds and is slightly shorter (as the 30.06 round is slightly flatter shooting)

Chris

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I have a picture of the Left Receiver and all markings but when I try to upload it, I am told I have reached my max allowed. How do I show all of you the picture..?

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You have exceeded your allotted disk space for attachments

The above is the message I get when I tried to add a picture.

I have not seen this. Pics need to be less than 250KB to attach but as far as I know there is no maximum allotted space unless it is a function of the overall number of posts

If you send me the picture (you can send the full file size) I will try and post it for you

my email is chrisjmcdonald atsign comcast dot net

Chris

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Winchester manufactured P'14s were issued for sniping prior to the adoption of the 1918 Pattern (Periscopic Prism Co.) sight in April 1918 but the scope sighted model barely saw service before the Armistice. The earlier non-scope sighted issue had 'Fine Tune Rearsights', a spindle inserted into the left side of the rearsight leaf to permit more precise ajustment for range, the knob was inset flush with the top and its upper surface was scribed into three segments. There is an appendix in Hesketh Prichard's 'Sniping in France' relating to this pattern - there has been a reprint available in recent years. The P'14 /1918 also had the fine tune rearsight. RC

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A document I purchased a while ago headed 'Genral Staff Branch - List of Important Questions Under Consideration', dated 1st November 1917, shows 169,000 Pattern 14 rifles as having been shipped to India along with a futher 8,500 to be used for stripping, totaling 177,500 rifles.

This is quite a significant portion of the P14 rifles made under British contract.

Regards

Alan David

Sydney

if anyone wants a copy of the two relevent pages please PM me.

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PM Sent Alan.

That's very interesting.

Cheers,

Chris

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I have been watching my post here with a hope, that someone would have deciphered the Left Receiver markings. Hint, Hint to those of you smart folks who may have knowledge to do so. Maybe others would learn from the new materials and decipher their own Rifles markings.


If this P14 was sent to India, has anyone experienced people in India looking up their family members service in a forum such as this one and/or joining and letting us all know they are proud of their history and have their own sites similar to this one...?


In my community there are many families from India but I have never found any one of them talk about Military service back in India. I had never thought about such a matter and may now write to a couple such friends and ask them directly. If the markings on the Left side of the Receiver could be known, maybe I could develop further tracking on this P14. Just so I do not make a social mistake, is it known among those in this forum if men from India felt positive or negative insofar as Military service..? Sometimes different cultures see things differently and I actually know near nothing about the Indian population and how it is/was attached to the British Government. If anyone can shed light on this, I would appreciate such knowledge. I wouldn't want to ask my Doctor, who is from India, a sensitive or possibly insulting question. The results could be bad.

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