Private STANTON John - N° 1809

[Drew-1918]

I wish i had had this sort of luck in researching my Grandfather John Thomas Iles of 2/KRRC !

Regards Keith.

I know what you mean!

Excuse me if you have already thought of this, but something else has just occurred to me. As a Sergeant, and the leader of a Patrol (as the War Diary states), John Stanton would have been particularly marked out for interrogation. The Germans would have known that he would be quite likely to be in possession of information the average Rifleman would not. In the August 1918 part of the 47^th Div. History there is an interesting snippet which may be of relevance here:

‘…And another captured document…if indication were needed, [says] that it was not the quality of our men which baulked us of a full measure of success. “The examination of the captured prisoners,” it reads, “presented great difficulty. Those especially of the 23^rd London Regiment were apparently excellently schooled in the way they should behave if captured, and they gave very clever evasive answers. The captured sergeant refused absolutely any information.” ’

Whilst the captured document refers “especially” to the 23^rd Bn. the Divisional History seems to hint that all the men in the division were similarly schooled. I can’t help but wonder if events unfolded in a similar way with Sergeant Stanton, and thus lead to the rifle butt in the head. A bit speculative, so please excuse me, but I thought it might be of interest.

Chris

[Keith Iles]

Hi Chris thanks for the info i hadn't thought of the significance of John being a Sergeant, it would have put him under a much heavier duress than him being a Private i guess. I still wonder what he done to be awarded the MM any ideas on how we might be able to track down the citation? keith

[Drew-1918]

Alright,

Not entirely sure there. I think I have read on the GWF that sometimes the London Gazette gives a full citation and sometimes just the basic details (as we have found). Other than that, I have sometimes seen M.M.s mentioned in Battalion histories, but unless I'm mistaken, there doesn't seem to be one for the 24th Bn. I wonder if there are any soldiers' memoirs/diaries for the 24th Londons? Though I think finding a mention in those would be a long-shot. Might be a slim chance there is something in the war diary, so I'll have a more thorough look through that. It's one to have a bit of a think about.

Chris

[Keith Iles]

Hi Chris we would be much obliged if you could have a quick gander in the WD for any reference, I'll go into the London Gazette when I get a spare minute and have a peek in the archives (as a side I am picking up 12 hour nights for the next 4 nights so I may take a little while to respond to you if you place any postings) Thanks again Chris all the best mate Keith

[Drew-1918]

No problem, I will have a good read through. Need no excuse for a gander at a the Diaries. Don't worry about rushing to post if you are busy, it'll take me a while to go through them.

Cheers,

Chris

[headgardener]

Page 22 of the Edinburgh Gazette has the announcement of the M.M:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13290/data.pdf

18th July 1918.jpg

Says he was a Corporal, so according to the Service Record, I think this means the M.M. must have been for an action between the 1.5.17 and 5.6.18.

Chris

Interesting thread.

Regarding you comment (above), you can narrow this period down further; there's usually a gap of about 3 months (give or take - often a bit longer during big campaigns) between the event that led to the award of the MM and the details of the award being publish in the Gazette. So if the LG is mid-July 1918 it's probably a safe bet that the incident occurred sometime roundabout March/April 1918 (German spring offensive...?).

No point in looking for a citation - there are none. They exist for other awards (MC, DCM, etc), but not for the MM. The clipping that you posted will be the only thing you'll find in the Gazette. The only place you might find something is in a local paper, battalion history, or other archive source (books, letters, etc).

[headgardener]

Great thread - ICRC records:

5270242773172224.jpg

Something that may have got lost in the excitement is that the ICRC records show that he was in 'B' Company (or at least he was when he was taken prisoner), which *might* help you establish something about the action which led to his MM. Also, the List that Simon posted shows that in November 1918 he was in Guestrow POW camp. Given that he'd only been a prisoner for about 3 months at that stage, it's reasonable to assume that he'd spent most - probably all - his confinement there.

[Drew-1918]

Interesting thread.

Regarding you comment (above), you can narrow this period down further; there's usually a gap of about 3 months (give or take - often a bit longer during big campaigns) between the event that led to the award of the MM and the details of the award being publish in the Gazette. So if the LG is mid-July 1918 it's probably a safe bet that the incident occurred sometime roundabout March/April 1918 (German spring offensive...?).

No point in looking for a citation - there are none. They exist for other awards (MC, DCM, etc), but not for the MM. The clipping that you posted will be the only thing you'll find in the Gazette. The only place you might find something is in a local paper, battalion history, or other archive source (books, letters, etc).

That is very helpful indeed, thank you very much for that. You have also made me just realise that as John Stanton was captive from the 5th April 1918, this would exclude a couple of months off the top end of my estimate too. I don't know what I was thinking there! If I remember correctly, according to his Service Record, he was a temporary Cpl. around the time you estimate. I had wondered about that. If you don't mind me asking- would he appear as Cpl. in the Gazette even if he was temporary at the time? Many thanks again.

Edit: confusing info.

Something that may have got lost in the excitement is that the ICRC records show that he was in 'B' Company (or at least he was when he was taken prisoner), which *might* help you establish something about the action which led to his MM. Also, the List that Simon posted shows that in November 1918 he was in Guestrow POW camp. Given that he'd only been a prisoner for about 3 months at that stage, it's reasonable to assume that he'd spent most - probably all - his confinement there.

I had indeed missed that. Another thing that should help to add detail to the story and also narrow the search for the M.M. (if it is out there). And thanks also for pointing out about Guestrow. Your posts are really going to add to the picture Keith can build up of Sgt. Stanton.

Regards,

Chris

[Keith Iles]

Hi all just a quick line as I am just about to leave for work tonight (DOH!) thank you all so much for the information that you are providing, I have been in contact with Philippe, the gentleman in France who found John's ID Disc and provided him with our contact details and he is very kindly arranging to have the disc returned to my wife's family. I am hoping at some point in the near future to use all the information you have kindly provided to try and do a write up on John's time in the army, his unit etc. Thank you all once again best regards to all, Keith

[Drew-1918]

That's great news Keith! Thanks for letting us know. What a thoroughly nice thing it was for Philippe to come on here and try to trace the family.

[headgardener]

That is very helpful indeed, thank you very much for that. You have also made me just realise that as John Stanton was captive from the 5th April 1918, this would exclude a couple of months off the top end of my estimate too. I don't know what I was thinking there! If I remember correctly, according to his Service Record, he was a temporary Cpl. around the time you estimate. I had wondered about that. If you don't mind me asking- would he appear as Cpl. in the Gazette even if he was temporary at the time? Many thanks again.

Chris, your original calculations were correct - he was POW in August, not April...!

Regarding his rank - I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I'm pretty sure that the Gazette entry showing him as 'Cpl' would be correct even in the event that his rank was only 'temporary'.

I'm assuming that Phillipe found the ID tag while out metal-detecting - I can't resist trying to imagine the circumstances in which he lost it, and the sheer impossibility of him imagining that it might ever be found, let alone that it might be returned to his family. It's a great story. I have to say that when I first read Phillipe's post, and then saw your post listing his address in Southwark (which is about 2 miles from where I'm sitting atm) I remember thinking 'Yeah, right, good luck with THAT...!'. Just goes to show.....

Nice work, Phillipe...!

[Drew-1918]

I seem to have got a bit confused about dates a couple of times. I don't know why that was. It may have something to do with typing quickly on the sly at work in eager anticipation, instead of soberly considering things later on at home, as I should have done. Apologies everyone.

Thanks very much for the reply on the T/Cpl. and Cpl. issue. Looking again at the Service Record, he was indeed a Cpl. at the time you mention. Apologies again, part and parcel of the same mistake mentioned above, I think. I'll take more care in future, I promise (He says fatefully).

I too had similar thoughts to yourself about how and where Sgt. Stanton lost his ID tag. I hope I didn't put Philippe off asking about where he found it. I just had visions of trying to compare the location against old trench maps... and seeing where he was and what he might have been doing. And I know what you mean about the initial posts. I had much the same thoughts myself. I must say I felt a bit silly posting the address saying the family "may have moved away", especially as I'd just seen a few pictures of the "Queens Buildings" having been bombed in WW2! Then a relative in Australia pops-up... What do you know!

Many thanks again and I second your thoughts regarding Philippe. Very well done Sir!

[Drew-1918]

Headgardener,

You were correct in your estimate for the date of the M.M.! John Stanton gets another mention in the War Diary. Thanks again, because it really made searching for it a lot easier. I just started at March 1918 and worked through to the end of April. Here is what it says:

APRIL 1918

Since quite a few men are mentioned, and the 24th Bn. have been in rest/training since the operations at and around AVELUY WOOD, and since it was such a significant set of actions, I can't help but wonder if it was there that John Stanton got his M.M. (March 29th to April 7th 1918). Whilst we have no specific details yet, I do think it moves us a bit closer to finding something out.

Cheers,

Chris

P.S. Near the Ancre. Ironically quite close to where he went missing 4 months later?

[headgardener]

Headgardener,

You were correct in your estimate for the date of the M.M.! John Stanton gets another mention in the War Diary. Thanks again, because it really made searching for it a lot easier. I just started at March 1918 and worked through to the end of April. Here is what it says:

APRIL 1918

J.Stanton M.M..jpg

Since quite a few men are mentioned, and the 24th Bn. have been in rest/training since the operations at and around AVELUY WOOD, and since it was such a significant set of actions, I can't help but wonder if it was there that John Stanton got his M.M. (March 29th to April 7th 1918). Whilst we have no specific details yet, I do think it moves us a bit closer to finding something out.

Yes, I think that's very likely. Remember that there's a very good chance he was serving with 'B' Co. at the time, in case any particular mention is made of their role.

Edit: also keep an eye open for other awards (DSO, MC, DCM) to 24/Lond in case citations are available and mention specific events during that period ('Lt. Smith and a corporal from 'B' Co brought in a wounded man...' - that sort of thing).

[Drew-1918]

OK, will do. Thanks a lot for that. There was quite a lot of mention of "B" Coy being one of the advance Coys in the wood. Tantalisingly, one L/Cpl March was mentioned in the notes on Operations, but not Cpl. Stanton, unfortunately. I'll have a re-read and also try the DSO, MC, & DCM route too.

Many thanks,

Chris

[Keith Iles]

Just had a quick read before hitting the sack (just home from night shift, two more to go!) this is really getting interesting. By the way Chris when i wrote an e mail to Philippe he mentioned in his reply that he had found the disc in BOMY in the Pas De Calais don't know if this helps at all best regards Keith

[Drew-1918]

Hello Keith and everyone,

Thanks for that info from Philippe, Keith. Great to have something to look into. Having a quick look at the 47th Division History, there seem to be two possibilities:-

1) In November 1915, the 47th Division was in the "familiar" Tillers area- Auchel, Allouagne, and Burbure. "Villages which seemed in those days to like us as much as we liked their estaminets..." They spent a month in this area before undergoing a route march "the first and last of its kind" to villages "in the direction of Bomy..." This must be on or about 15th December 1915, though the History is not very clear on the dates here. "Rations arrived at midnight, and some of us tried to combine a late breakfast with an early start, rather to the disadvantage of the former.". The previous month had taken its toll of 900 all ranks killed and wounded. "Many men, too, were evacuated sick. Reinforcements to replace those losses came very irregularly, and some battalions were much below strength. It was at this time that the men first became acquainted with two new pieces of equipment. The first was 'boot, gum, thigh.'...a real boon to men who had to stand for hours in mud and water.."

If John dropped his ID disc here, he would have been very unlikely to have been able to retrieve it.

The second piece of equipment they got at this time, by the way, was the steel helmet. A senior officer apparently complained about them saying they were "unbecoming".

To compare this to John Stanton's Service Record; he had first arrived in France on the 15.3.15 and had then sustained a G.S.W. to the leg and neck on the 25th May 1915 when he was sent to the 4th London Field Hospital. After that, he was evacuated back to the U.K. on the 27th April. He spent just under 5 months at home, before he was again sent out to France on the 9th October 1915, rejoining the battalion on the 18th October. If he lost the ID Disc in the mud of the Bomy area in December 1915, he would only have been back for about two months. I wonder if you would get a telling-off for that!?

It may have been obvious to others, but it has only just occurred to me that the ID disc has his old Territorial 4 digit number- 1809 (pre-renumbering). That might indicate that he must have lost the tag in 1915 or 1916, since surely he would have been issued with a new ID disc in early 1917 with 720314 on it?

2) 23rd February 1916, the Division was in G.H.Q. Reserve (Bomy seems to have been a 'rest' area around this time), and the ground lay deep in snow. Brigades sent successively for training to the Bomy area couldn't do much training due to the weather.

What did they do to occupy themselves then? The aforementioned Estaminets?

I will now check this against the War Diary, its just that initially it is quicker for me to run a search on my Kindle with the History, rather than read through the WD on a pdf.

Chris

[Simon_Fielding]

I might be wrong, but weren't the ID discs of the time privately bought rather than issued?

[Drew-1918]

That's interesting. I must have presumed they were officially produced and handed out. Thanks very much for making that point.

[Drew-1918]

I think you were right about the disc Simon. The following article from the WFA seems to say that, although the official red/brown vulcanised asbestos fibre disc was issued, the majority of soldiers acquired "private purchase" ones, mostly in the form of aluminium bracelets:

I.D. Tags

I had an image in my head of John Stanton wearing this disc around his neck. But, unless I have misunderstood the article, the mostly likely scenario seems to be that he would have worn it as a bracelet?

Cheers,

Chris

Edit: This doesn't seem to be linking to the correct page. Search ID tags in the WFA search engine.

Edited 2 December , 2016 by Drew-1918

[headgardener]

I might be wrong, but weren't the ID discs of the time privately bought rather than issued?

I think you were right about the disc Simon. The following article from the WFA seems to say that, although the official red/brown vulcanised asbestos fibre disc was issued, the majority of soldiers acquired "private purchase" ones, mostly in the form of aluminium bracelets:

I had an image in my head of John Stanton wearing this disc around his neck. But, unless I have misunderstood the article, the mostly likely scenario seems to be that he would have worn it as a bracelet?

Yes, this is a privately purchased or home-made ID tag. The red/brown tags were officially issued, and there was an aluminium version which was issued in the early days of the war but this was circular and looked very different to John's tag. The official ones were worn around the neck, the unofficial ones were worn as bracelets. I understand that the effects of modern warfare (particularly high explosive shells) on the human body was particularly shocking for a population who still expected a person's body to have a final marked resting place (cremation being still fairly uncommon). I also understand that this led many men to wear multiple ID tags in the hope that it would assist in the identification of their bodies in the event that one or more tags were destroyed.

Many men made their own bracelets, and a cottage industry developed making bracelets from old pieces of brass shell casing (brass being a relatively easy metal to work).

[Drew-1918]

Yes, this is a privately purchased or home-made ID tag. The red/brown tags were officially issued, and there was an aluminium version which was issued in the early days of the war but this was circular and looked very different to John's tag. The official ones were worn around the neck, the unofficial ones were worn as bracelets. I understand that the effects of modern warfare (particularly high explosive shells) on the human body was particularly shocking for a population who still expected a person's body to have a final marked resting place (cremation being still fairly uncommon). I also understand that this led many men to wear multiple ID tags in the hope that it would assist in the identification of their bodies in the event that one or more tags were destroyed.

Many men made their own bracelets, and a cottage industry developed making bracelets from old pieces of brass shell casing (brass being a relatively easy metal to work).

That is very interesting indeed. Many thanks.

[phiphi]

Hello everyone and thank you for your help. Actually this nameplate was found with a metal detector. When we do this kind of discovery, the most important thing is that it returns to the soldier's family or look in the regimental museum. Next Saturday, we will give the representative of the British Legion nameplate Albert Carr soldier. It will then be returned to the grand son of the soldier who lives in North London. I present you some photos of the town of Bomy like tommy could see.

[phiphi]

Another one.

[Keith Iles]

HI phiphi thank you for posting the photo's to everyone who has been involved with giving information on my wife's grandfather we thank you all once again, at present i am having trouble with my e-mail ( not allowing them to download, hopefully i shall sort this out shorty now i'm on days off again) if anyone wishes to contact me directly at the moment could you please PM me thanks again best regards to all Keith