Dollis Hill

[johnboy]

Possibly behind Geron Way or Brent Terrace.?

[Ali H.]

I did a lot more walking round and photographing today. This topic has rather got me going: I am a Dollis Hill history nerd, as I said. The tank training ground AND the Paddocks have interested me for many years. Anyhow, Nigel's great research led me to some interesting finds on both counts, I think. I am now pretty sure that the factory in the original photo is the one I took the quick and dirty photo of - it's on Nigel's map. I also found other interesting clues, including what seem to be the remnants of old stabling, some of which may match ches the outbuilding pictures at location 2. And, the factory had offices associated, which are stil there. Finding what's left of the Paddocks outbuildings made my year.

 

As to the wall, it's literally the only surviving part and there's no trace - even on my old maps - of it existing elsewhere. This leads me to think that the rest of the boundary - if indeed, it extended all the way round - was far less substantial. So, here's my theory. In behind the Great Wall is a patch of waste ground, once garages, in part, and the remainder is the bottom of some very long gardens. These gardens belong to what I call marker houses. Older houses in local roads which are mostly 1920s in character, these were built prior to WW1 to basically kick off development and mark layouts. There's quite a lot of them. Given how steep our hill is, I suspect the wall may have been mostly for retaining the soft clay and sand/gravel mix that the hill is made of. The wall is VERY substantial - the piers are probably a couple of feet deep. If a wall as massive as this had been in place all the way round the tank grounds, then there'd be evidence of it. There isn't, and never has been in my lifetime.

 

Nigel has definitely got me going on this, I'm going to flag it to the Willesden Local History Society. And have a hunt through the train books.....

 

Like I said, I took some slightly better photos today - I can upload to Photobucket and post if you'd like?

[johnboy]

Brent Junction is/was virtually in a straight line with the Paddocks. Unloading at Cricklewood Curve would not have been far for the tanks to travel.

[Ali H.]

I've now got the Willesden History Society a bit excited about this. Nigel, I'm going to get them to read this thread. Would it be OK if we quoted your efforts with full attribution please? 

[NigelS]

28 minutes ago, Ali H. said:

I've now got the Willesden History Society a bit excited about this. Nigel, I'm going to get them to read this thread. Would it be OK if we quoted your efforts with full attribution please? 

 

Ali H.  No problem at all. It would be good to have what I & others have provided so far used as the basis for further research & verification (or otherwise.) With input from others with a better knowledge of the area & its history, who knows what else might surface? All I can hope is, that in the same spirit that I've posted my investigations here, anything  new will either be shared here, or openly released elsewhere for general consumption.

 

With regard to the arrival of tanks by rail at Dollis Hill, I would imagine that some official WD photographs must  have been taken at some time, whether they've survived, or are recognisable as such is another matter altogether.  I doubt, because of the nature of the establishment, that any siding used would have allowed viewing of loading/unloading to have taken place under the public's gaze, so, with Army railway engineers building numerous lines on both the Western & Home Fronts, could there have been a short lived, dedicated track directly onto the site?

 

NigelS

[johnboy]

Any pics of tanks being unloaded from trains would be very interesting and give an idea of the amount of space needed. I have seen pics of possibly broken down tanks being jacked back and front and the rail carriage being reversed under it. An operational tank might have been able to slew round and drive off. This would have been a challenge. Unless of course, a concrete or similar, platform the same height as the carriage was built. The train would draw alongside the tank would then be able to drive onto it and come off down a ramp at the end. The drawback with slewing the tank is that the tracks would chew up the floor of the carriage unless it was constructed with chequer plate. When travelling by train the sponsons would have been removed and put back on site.

[Sidearm]

On 9/20/2016 at 00:21, Ali H. said:

 

Like I said, I took some slightly better photos today - I can upload to Photobucket and post if you'd like?

 

Yes please!

 

Gwyn

[johnboy]

A pic of using a platform to off load a tank from a railway wagon. Much like I described in post #31.

 

Edited 24 September , 2016 by johnboy

[Ali H.]

Nigel, profuse apologies for not replying, I don't seem to be getting notifications. Any research would absolutely be made public and freely available. For one thing, it's how I found your work. And thank you. 

 

Gwyn, I went back down today with the proper camera rather than my phone and took a stack more photos. I'll upload them to PB once I've gone through them and post the links here. I was wandering round one industrial estate when their lovely caretaker got interested in what I was doing. I told him a short version of the story and he insisted on showing me all sorts of hidden and closed off areas, including a switchgear room from the 1920s. That particular factory was, from memory, probably the old Bentley works.

 

Anyhow, once the photos are tidied a bit, I'll post. The old stable building I found is probably going to be demolished, so I've asked the developers if I can go in and take pictures.

 

 

[johnboy]

Does the Cricklewood Curve section of the railway line still exist?

[Ali H.]

15 hours ago, johnboy said:

Does the Cricklewood Curve section of the railway line still exist?

 

Absolutely it does, it's a fairly well used goods line. There's a campaign to link it as part of a North  London light rail line.

[Ali H.]

I've set up a folder on Photobucket. I need to label it properly, but feel free to have a browse. The "McCurd" factory is in there, as is it's frontage and the remains of the outbuildings. The others are of the Atlas Centre, which was the Bentley factory, I believe.

 

http://s286.photobucket.com/user/ownedbybear/library/Dollis Hill research?sort=3&page=1

 

 

[johnboy]

Thanks for the pics. A lot looks from the right time. There is a pic of a blue painted girder. Is there one running paralell to it that could possibly have been used for lifting gear?

Not having a plan of the site at the time, makes it hard for me to place the pics. I think that any signs of ramps or the outdoor lifting bay have probably been built over.

[Ali H.]

6 hours ago, johnboy said:

Thanks for the pics. A lot looks from the right time. There is a pic of a blue painted girder. Is there one running paralell to it that could possibly have been used for lifting gear?

Not having a plan of the site at the time, makes it hard for me to place the pics. I think that any signs of ramps or the outdoor lifting bay have probably been built over.

Hi all

 

I've now gone through and labelled the photos in the album, which hopefully makes it clearer. Those girders are actually underground in what was probably the Bentley factory, so too late for the tanks. I can't quite work out why there were what amount to individual strong rooms under a massive supported girder floor in a car facory though.

 

I think the "McCurd" factory shows up rather well - if that's what it was in the photo. It certainly loks like the same building and I do think the outbuilding loks right, too. I've emailed Brent to see if its walls might be salvageable.

[johnboy]

Thanks for the labelling. 

[johnboy]

Not sure if this helps with pic of McCurds?

 

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/23rd-september-1915/13/the-mccurd-works

[Ali H.]

That's really interesting. If that's the McCurd works, the roof profile isn't the same as the one in Nigel's photo - which does seem to match the one on Horseshoe Close. so I do believe they're the same, at least. The profile on that McCurds picture is equilateral, but the one in the photo, and on my Horseshoe ones looks skewed, with a flat part between each elevation.

 

More factory hunting needed.

[Ali H.]

Sorry! The photos were of course posted by Stripeyman. Nigel did the spiffy research.

[johnboy]

I've seen some other stuff today. More info on the area not the tank grounds though. If you want it , I can try and get it all together and PM you it?

[NigelS]

Thanks for putting up the photos Ali H.

 

Looking at the photos in the Commercial Motors article posted by Johnboy it's clear that the McCurd factory isn't the one shown in the background of Stripeyman's post 7.  However, looking at the aerial photos again, it looked as if the buildings near to Willesden Paddock (circled below), from their general appearance, might fit the bill.

 

 

 

Looking at 101, Coles Green Rd, using streetview on Googlemaps  Click appears - at least to me -  to confirm it

 

 

[Sidearm]

On 10/1/2016 at 10:24, Ali H. said:

I've set up a folder on Photobucket. I need to label it properly, but feel free to have a browse. The "McCurd" factory is in there, as is it's frontage and the remains of the outbuildings. The others are of the Atlas Centre, which was the Bentley factory, I believe.

 

http://s286.photobucket.com/user/ownedbybear/library/Dollis Hill research?sort=3&page=1

 

 

Very many thanks for the photos and captions.  Will enjoy studying these later.

 

Gwyn

[NigelS]

Revisiting the earlier maps, from that of c1915 the McCurd factory appears to have been sited on the location of what had originally been some outbuildings of (Upper) Oxgate Farm with Coles Green Rd having been extended north at, probably, about the same time and would, if my theory about the large house in the background having been Willesden Paddock is correct, have been off picture to the right of the photo posted by Stripeyman in Post 11.

 

 

 

If my interpretation of the location of the 19th century stable block in Ali H's photo set is correct, this would appear to have been part of the  outbuildings behind (ie to the west & 'Outbuildings 2' above) of the surviving (Upper) Oxgate Farm house. Large scale maps from the 50's shows that complex as having become 'Oxgate Farm Works'  (McCurd factory (?) circled)

 

Rotated by 180 degrees to allow comparison with the previous maps

 

Although, I believe, fairly well known I don't think we've discussed  pictures of operations at Dollis Hill by the artist Bernard Adeney from the IWM's collection. Click   Art.IWM ART 2488  & Art.IWM ART 1868 show views of what appears to be the shelter shown in the post 11 photo; Art.IWM ART 3888 shows a view of a whippet which could almost have been drawn using the post 7 photo!. 

Art.IWM ART 3894 & Art.IWM ART 3895 show a tank being worked on under a gantry, and I can't help wondering whether the factory building in the background might be the back of the McCurd factory.  Although the post war aerial photographs are not that detailed they do appear to show doors  opening on to what would have been the testing ground, and, although there's no indication from Johnboy's Commercial Motors archive article that this was the case, it would make sense to have been able to drive vehicles right the way through the factory. I don't recall reading, other than that ...It conveniently adjoined the McCurd lorry factory  (The Devil's Chariots': The origins and secret battles of tanks in the First World War by John Glanfield (2006); See post 14), that McCurds were involved with tanks, but having what was, apparently, a state of the engineering works on the doorstep is likely to have been much more than just 'convenient'

 

NigelS

[johnboy]

I think that the tank establishment was there in 1916, if it helps. If I find the ref I will post later.

[Ali H.]

20 hours ago, johnboy said:

I've seen some other stuff today. More info on the area not the tank grounds though. If you want it , I can try and get it all together and PM you it?

Oh, yes please, that would be brilliant.

[Ali H.]

Hi Nigel

 

Your circled building is indeed not my white painted "McCurd" factory or whatever the thing is. The one I took photos of is the one shown on Horseshoe Close which has the office building in front and that tall entrance opening through on to Oxgate Lane. It's the factory I thought had the closest roof profile to whatever the one is in the photo. You have it outlined as opposite the possible location of Oxgate Cottage. Having looked through some other material, by the way, I do agree with your supposition as to where the cottage was. So, I now wonder what that factory was.

 

The label of Outbuildings 2 fits nicely with the remnants I found, including those 19th C walls with the metal ties.

 

That circled building on Coles Green Road is now a pretty decent car repair company and is indeed next door to the pub. However - and this is based purely on subjective judgement - I think it's slightly  the wrong orientation and too close to the old outbuildings. But, spatial judging based on an old photo is tricky. It's also quite small, but then the McCurd factory was too, by the look of it. I need to go check on some other maps, and see what was shown pre 1920s. I'll also go have a proper look at its roof and see how it compares with that photo. Pictures will be taken, of course. I know the people who run it, so they might let me get some inside views. 

 

I've seen those watercolours and I covet them, rather.

 

All this fascinates me, as you can guess. We've an astonishing amount of history for such a little place.

 

And many thanks, all.