Dollis Hill

[stripeyman]

I have got interested in the tank testing ground at Dollis Hill NW2. All my books have been trawled through for photos which are quite numerous. So far I find that it was near the McCurd lorry factory and was situated between Dollis Hill Lane and Oxgate Lane. There is a road that I have had a virtual walk down with Streetview that is named Tankridge Road. Also had a look at the very good site Britain from Above that shows part of NW2 in the 1920's. However I have been unable to obtain a prewar map or immediate postwar one that would show the area. I was told that a small section the fence or wall that is seen in the wartime photos is still there ?

Any further information would be appreciated.

Thank you

Bob Grundy

[NigelS]

Bob, If you haven't already investigated, the NLS (National Library of Scotland) map web pages have a copy of the 6" OS map of the area given as 'revised 1912; published 1920' available Click which might be of interest.

NigelS

[johnboy]

I have seen reference to them being in Finchley. The nearest to Dollis Hill is this one

Others included, by 1919, McCurd Lorry Manufacturing Co. and Lamplough Radiator & Engineering Co., each with 80 employees on Edgware Road at Cricklewood

[squirrel]

The Clement Talbot Motor Works were a short journey away in Barlby Road, Harlesden. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the first engines were tested there. I may of course be wrong.

On nearby Wormwood Scrubs, now thew site of the Linford Christie Stadium, was where Commander Samson and the RN armoured car unit had a small base after their return from France/Belgium in early 1915 and where they experimented with various specifications for armour plate.

[johnboy]

My guess would be that it was very close to Edgware Road. Facing onto what is now the North Circular Road. Right opposite this location is The Welsh Harp [brent Reservoir] where an amphibious Tank was experimented with. The facility would have to be within the testing grounds for it to remain a secret.

Maybe you could find out when the N. Circular Road was built?

[stripeyman]

Thank you all. The map is very good it shows what a change has been made in 90 odd years. I will post a pic tomorrow showing a factory just outside the famous fence/wall that surrounded the site.

[stripeyman]

This is the photo showing the factory, could this be McCurds ? Note the shadow so I think looking south (ish).

[johnboy]

I will post a pic tomorrow showing a factory just outside the famous fence/wall that surrounded the site.

What is famous about it? It looks like a wire fence . I thought you meant you had a recent photo of a piece of brick wall that could be located.

[stripeyman]

I will post a pic tomorrow showing a factory just outside the famous fence/wall that surrounded the site.

What is famous about it? It looks like a wire fence . I thought you meant you had a recent photo of a piece of brick wall that could be located.

Only that it appears in nearly every shot of tanks at Dollis Hill.

BTW the Whippet shown is a prototype.

[johnboy]

Can you post other pics of tanks at the site?

My guess is that the site was on Edgware Road stretching back towards Neasden. My reasons are;

The railway sidings on the other side of the road which may have been needed to transport them and the proximity to the Welsh Harp where, apparently, tests were done with an amphibious tank. It would not make sense to have two experimental units.

Was there an official name for this place?

[stripeyman]

This is the best one that shows something in the background. I will study the map and see if anything resembles the large house. All the others are just tanks and the fence/wall. The photo shows a Mk11 with the Westinghouse petrol/electric transmission of the type used in trams.

I do not know the official name of this establishment

[johnboy]

If you could pinpoint the house that would be great.

I am wondering if the open fronted 'barn' was already on the site? If so it could be a farm?

[johnboy]

I came this recording. Unfortunately it gives no better location but does say it is near railway and Welsh Harp. The amphibious tank experiments were done form that location. The place was called the Experimental Ground Dollis Hill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ssp9g

[NigelS]

After reading the following in The Devil's Chariots': The origins and secret battles of tanks in the First World War by John Glanfield (2006)

...He was promoted lieutenant-colonel and for the rest of the year he shuttled between Bermicourt and the MWD Experimental Station at Dollis Hill in North London. It conveniently adjoined the McCurd lorry factory, now dilapidated but still standing near Staples Corner...

Then by taking a tour round the area using Google Maps Streetview, it appears that the factory which features in the Whippet image (which may or not be the McCurd’s) lies with its frontage on the Dollis Hill Lane side of the modern-day Oxgate Lane.

Click for view from the Coles Green Rd end of Oxgate Lane

...From the Edgware Rd end of Oxgate Lane; however, more significant is the view from Horseshoe Close (ie the Coles Green Rd side of the factory looking towards Edgware Rd) which matches the profile of the factory in the Whippet shot – note also the similarity of the roof mounted cowls.

There is a another old factory of a similar style on the opposite side of Oxgate Lane (ie the North Circular side) which might, being unable to establish with any certainty that the factory in the Whippet image is McCurd’s, might also be able to lay claim to that title, but the roofline profile to match that of the Whippet image (from Eyhurst Close) shows circular windows in the present day view, so is less likely to be the correct candidate.

Having possibly identified the location of the factory building, I then wondered about the identity of the large house. Looking at the NLS c.1914 & 1935 large scale OS maps for the area (inconveniently at the corners of four maps!):

National Library of Scotland (NLS) OS 25" 1841-1952 maps c.1914

Middlesex XI.10 (includes: Hendon; Wembley; Willesden)

Revised: 1912 Published: 1914

Middlesex XI.11 (includes: Hendon)

Revised: 1912 Published: 1915

Middlesex XI.14 (includes: Willesden)

Revised: 1912 Published: 1914

London (1915- Numbered sheets) I.15 (includes: Hampstead; Hendon; Willesden)

Revised: 1913 Published: 1915

National Library of Scotland (NLS) OS 25" 1841-1952 maps c.1935

Middlesex XI.10 (includes: Hendon; Wembley; Willesden)

Revised: 1935 to 1936; Published: 1937

Middlesex XI.11 (includes: Hendon)

Revised: 1936 Published: 1938

Middlesex XI.14 (includes: Willesden)

Revised: 1936 Published: 1938

London (1915- Numbered sheets) I.15 (includes: Hampstead; Hendon; Willesden)

Revised: 1936 Published: 1938

Comparing these maps It can be seen that a considerable amount of development – commercial, industrial & housing - took place between the wars rapidly changing the nature of the area from rural to urban. The c1914 maps which, don’t show the McCurd’s factory would have been surveyed some time previously so were by WW1 already out of date, housing development can already be seen beginning along Oxgate Gardens, Dollis Hill Lane & Dollis Hill Avenue to the south east of the area. The North Circular which skirts the southern edge of the Brent Reservoir to the north may have existed in the planning stages but was a post war development. By 1914 the railway & its yards to the east was well established and the Edgware Rd, as a Roman road (Watling Street) had been well used for far longer. Assuming that the Whippet image factory is that identified above, the location can be pinpointed on the c1914 maps as being in an area then known as Willesden Paddocks on Oxgate Lane. At this time Oxgate Lane ran south-west from the Edgware Rd making a right angle turn at Willesden Paddock to run south-east to join Dollis Hill lane. (the c1935 map show this section of Oxgate Lane extended to the north-west from Willesden Paddock to join the North Circular and renamed as Coles Green Rd)

An early postcard of Oxgate Lane (final image Here ) shows what could possibly be a building shown on the both the c1914 & 1935 maps that would have been opposite to the Whippet picture factory on the section of Oxgate Lane running towards the Edgware Rd – it certainly isn’t the large house!

Another property which features on both maps is Upper Oxgate Farm, surprisingly this, although in a very derelict state, still exists Click Although there are some similarities, again, it doesn’t match the large house of the tank image. (Further information on this interesting building can be found 'At Oxgate Farm' & 'Campaign launched to save Old Oxgate Farm in Dollis Hill'

It seems that the candidate most likely to be the large house would be that of Willesden Paddocks itself with the outbuildings visible being part of the extensive stabling & yards that existed. Sadly, despite extensive trawling of the web I have been unable to find any other photos of this building to confirm it (or otherwise). This article ‘Willesden Paddocks, a famous stud farm’ gives a fairly, although not mentioning any connection with tank development (nor having any images of the house) gives a brief history, revealing that – and this will doubtless interest Johnboy – the site was used as a stud farm for horses run by the Tattersall family and later continued in use for breeding cavalry horses, then as an Army depot for training horses, c1906. (the fact the Army was already in residence might have had some bearing on the tank test site being established there). Post WW1, in 1922, Colonel Sir Alfred ‘Toby’ Rawlinson, CMG, CBE, and DSO took up residence.

According to a Find My Past Blog ‘Famous family trees: Clare Balding’ Horse dealing ancestors of hers also had connections with Willesden Paddocks: Albert Charles Balding and Florence Mabel Matthews were married on 22 August 1901 at Hendon Parish Church. Albert’s occupation was given as a dealer in horses and his father was William Balding, deceased, also a dealer in horses. Florence’s father was John Barnard Matthews, also deceased, a licensed victualler. Attempting to discover who Albert’s parents were, I next looked at the 1891 census. This produced more confusion because initially I couldn’t find him! I did eventually locate him – but his first name appeared on the census schedule as HERBERT. He was living with his grandparents, William and Mary Ann Balding, at an address called Willesden Paddocks, Oxgate Lane, Willesden, north London. William Balding was aged 60, a dealer in horses, born at Reading, Berkshire; Mary Ann Balding was 59, born at Wickford, Essex; and with them were three grandsons, William 16, Herbert (Albert) 15 and Arthur 13. All three boys were born at New Cross, Middlesex, and the two elder ones were described as ‘Assistant to Grand Father’. It was apparent that William Balding was in a substantial way of business as a horse dealer, for also in the household were a female servant and six males all connected with horses or farm work, including three grooms, a cowman, a blacksmith and a stableman.

Two Britain from Above images from the 1930s (The Staples Mattress Factory and Staples Corner, Dollis Hill, 1930 (EPW032172) and Scribbans-Kemp Biscuit Factory and environs, Dollis Hill, 1930 (EPW032145) show the general area; both show the location of Willesden Paddock & one shows the factory, but unfortunately details of the large house are unclear, or it had already been demolished (it doesn’t feature on the c1935 map). By this time, to the west of Coles Green Road, Crest Road has been built (In effect an extension of Oxgate Lane running from the Edgware Rd) between the large house and the adjacent outbuildings (as the original buildings share a similar footprint to those – still existent - built to replace them, it’s difficult to tell whether it is the originals or the replacement that feature in the aerial shots.)

Here are a couple of screengrabs of these images which I’ve annotated with my interpretation of the layout

And composite images of the c1915 & 1935 OS maps – rotated by 180 degrees (ie south to top to more closely match the orientation of the aerial photos - similarly annotated

NigelS

[Sidearm]

This gets my vote for post of the year, Nigel. Well done. Really excellent original research. Thank you for sharing.

Gwyn

[NigelS]

Gwyn, thank you for your kind comments

NigelS

[Ali H.]

Hi all. I was referred to this thread and may have some useful input on it. I live in Dollis Hill and see the old wall of the tank ground every day. I'll get a picture up later, the ones I have are too big. .We're rather proud of it locally. There's a piece of film of which I have a copy showing a tank rolling round roughly where my house is.

 

Nigel your research is great. I'm a local history nut and I own many of the maps and so forth that you've referenced. What may help with this is that I've a lifetime of knowing the area, and walking round it - I was a local councillor here.

 

I'm going to go and dig out some of my own references, especially with regard to The Paddocks. I've some older maps which I think show the house and buildings location.

 

There are still factory buildings here - predating the houses - with those roof cowlings. The ones down to the north of Oxgate Lane do indeed have round windows though, so aren't it. I strongly suspect the factory was closer to Humber Road and probably even on Humber itself. There are old factory buildings which don't have frontages onto Oxgate Lane and can only be reached via newer ones. That aerial photo shows the Saxon field boundary which Humber (and other roads) follow. It doesn't, though, show the factorues which exist (ed) at the A5 end of Edgware Road well before any housing. These were predominantly motor vehicle and aviation. Severla were demolished and redeveloped in the 80s. I'll take a walk later and see what I can photograph. I've also got books on those factories if I can find where the house has hidden them.

 

The tanks wouldn't have needed rail to get to the Welsh Harp - which is, by the way, a glorious place.

 

 

[Ali H.]

PS: I presume someone has checked Kellys for the McCurd location? It may not be specific enough though.

 

And sorry, one other thought.

 

The place where you've got the large house shown on the map is now two blocks of mansion flats called Seymour Court.  My understanding is that they were built on open farmland/market garden.

 

And yes, we're working to save the Farm. Thirteenth and twelfth century oak beams!

[johnboy]

 

The tanks wouldn't have needed rail to get to the Welsh Harp - which is, by the way, a glorious place.

 

The tanks would have travelled under their own power to the Welsh Harp. The railway the other side of the Edgware Road was probably used to deliver the tanks. 

[Ali H.]

I went for a bit of a walk.

 

I think this may be the factory. It's behind what's now Wing Yip on the A5 and Henfield Storage/Millenium Centre on Humber Road and accessed from Horseshoe Close. The photo is taken from the back of Henfield. The orientation fits, and it's roughly parallel with the A5.

 

The remainder of the wall is behind you, as you look at the factory. Runs roughly east west. Ish. It starts next to 1 Coles Green Road, runs along the top of Walton Close and ends at about  1 Chipstead Gardens. A neighbour at the top of Walton is building an extension and is being VERY careful of "his" wall, bless him. Some fool in the 80s wanted to demolish it in part to open the road up. We fought it off and Brent, to their credit, refused it. I need to get it locally listed.

 

Photos are a bit rubbish, I was using my phone to get them small enough. Better ones can be provided.

 

 

[Ali H.]

Third photo. I can get far better generally  local ones if wanted, I'll upload them to Photobucket.

 

If anyone ever wants the guided tour of Dollis Hill military history, including all our bunkers, just shout.

[Ali H.]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

 

The tanks wouldn't have needed rail to get to the Welsh Harp - which is, by the way, a glorious place.

 

The tanks would have travelled under their own power to the Welsh Harp. The railway the other side of the Edgware Road was probably used to deliver the tanks. 

 

Indeed. It would be interesting to know where they took them off the trains. The sidings were once FAR bigger than they are now. Steam engine cleaning depot when I was growing up.

[Sidearm]

Many thanks for these photos.  I might even take you up on that offer of a tour one day!

 

Gwyn

[johnboy]

On 17/09/2016 at 12:02, Ali H. said:

 

Indeed. It would be interesting to know where they took them off the trains. The sidings were once FAR bigger than they are now. Steam engine cleaning depot when I was growing up.

My guess would be somewhere past the bus garage and before the bridge at Staples Corner.

[NigelS]

4 minutes ago, Sidearm said:

Many thanks for these photos.  I might even take you up on that offer of a tour one day!

 

Gwyn

Indeed.  Great to have some local input on this. Certainly an impressive wall - The Great Wall of Dollis Hill? - and very clear on Google Earth etc once you know just where to look

NigelS