ARMY SERVICE CORP SENT TO SALONKA AS REINFORCEMENT 30.1.17

[sian leitch]

Thank you so much Kenf48, you have explained some army terminology really well to a not very knowledgable researcher of WW1 records. You have definately given me some ideas for future research. Cheers

[gaffa]

Did anyone from the 246 Coy go to Salonika?

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, gaffa said:

Did anyone from the 246 Coy go to Salonika?

 

246 Company did not go to Salonika whether individual soldiers did...maybe.

We're good but without a name can't really help.

[gaffa]

Edwin Evan Williams

[kenf48]

On 15/05/2018 at 22:03, gaffa said:

Edwin Evan Williams

 

There are a number of Edwin Williams in the Rolls, however there is an Evan Edward Williams M2/166483.

Is that him? Numbers either side of him were posted to India.

 

Ken

[gaffa]

23 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

There are a number of Edwin Williams in the Rolls, however there is an Evan Edward Williams M2/166483.

Is that him? Numbers either side of him were posted to India.

 

Ken

NO

[JMSpencer]

Hi everyone,

I managed (eventually) to find my Grandad's WW1 service record, but it's one that's terrible to read! I worked out, not having any great military knowledge, that he was ASC (HT) and served in France for the latter part of 1916, then transported to Selonika and then on to Egypt. He arrived home in 1919. He signed up in 1914 for the Territorial Force but wasn't called up until 1916, when he was aged 30.

 

My questions - he appeared to have spent a short time in hospital in France and was discharged from his unit; I can't read why he was a Casualty, but appeared to have rejoined another unit. Any ideas why that might be?

Also, I think he was a horseminder in France but (possibly) a vehicle driver in Selonika and Egypt, where his rank changed to Lieutenant?? Has anyone come across this before? He had a very common surname, Green, but I traced his records using his home address - so it's the right record.  I'm mystified.

Thanks for any possible explanations! Jo.

Edited 26 November , 2018 by JMSpencer

[familyhistoryman]

2 hours ago, JMSpencer said:

Hi everyone,

I managed (eventually) to find my Grandad's WW1 service record, but it's one that's terrible to read! I worked out, not having any great military knowledge, that he was ASC (HT) and served in France for the latter part of 1916, then transported to Selonika and then on to Egypt. He arrived home in 1919. He signed up in 1914 for the Territorial Force but wasn't called up until 1916, when he was aged 30.

 

My questions - he appeared to have spent a short time in hospital in France and was discharged from his unit; I can't read why he was a Casualty, but appeared to have rejoined another unit. Any ideas why that might be?

Also, I think he was a horseminder in France but (possibly) a vehicle driver in Selonika and Egypt, where his rank changed to Lieutenant?? Has anyone come across this before? He had a very common surname, Green, but I traced his records using his home address - so it's the right record.  I'm mystified.

Thanks for any possible explanations! Jo.

Jo

Can you let us know his name and number

Tony

[gaffa]

On 20/03/2017 at 20:46, kenf48 said:

 

I helps if you start with what you know.

 

He was a 'Special Enlistment' as a shoeing smith.  This means he was recruited to follow his peacetime occupation while serving in the Army.  Typically men who were enlisted in this way were paid more than the infantryman (his record shows 5 shillings a day as opposed to the infantryman's basic of a shilling a day).  They received the minimum of training as a soldier, more an orientation to understand the 'Army way' but would be required to take trade or proficiency tests.  They were not expected to fight, nor to be deployed on the front line however in times of crisis especially on the Western Front they would be expected to know how to use a rifle.

 

As his record shows he enlisted on the 8th March 1915 and was allocated the number TS/6431.  He made and fitted horse shoes He  remained in the UK until 25th January 1916 when he was posted to Salonica where he remained until 7th May 1919.  He embarked for home on the 8th May 1919 and arrived on the 24th May.  He was discharged  to the Class Z Reserve on the 2Ist  June 1919 at Woolwich.  He was finally demobilised on 31 March 1920 (Kings Regulation para 392 xxviii, i.e. reason for discharge - on demobilisation).  He joined the TA in July and if you go backwards on Ancestry from the image you land on from the search page there are extensive details of his post war service.  He was eventually promoted to Farrier Sergeant in the TA.

 

His discharge papers show 573 Coy 3 BHTD (suggest  3rd Base Horse Transport Depot, or as you say 3rd Base Depot).  The Base Depot was around the port of Salonika and this is confirmed by a minor disciplinary report in his record which notes he was disciplined at Salonika.  The same sheet, which unfortunately has been chopped off gives a clue to his UK posting as Hampshire, one entry is .....ry Hill (? Strawberry Hill Newbury?).  He would have been around Aldershot.

 

On discharge he received a pension as, in common with most soldiers who served in Salonika, he was suffering from malaria.  There is no indication in the surviving records that he served elsewhere than at the Base Depot at Salonika where he would have carried on his army and peacetime trade shoeing and looking after horses.

 

Ken

 

 

[gaffa]

Ken, The discharge company is the last Company the guy was with, My Grandfather had been transferred several times and his history is very hard to find Possibly 270,279 ,486 852 & finally the 573. He went to Egypt, Gallipoli and Salonika plus some of the Islands around the Med i.e Murdros, Imbros, Skyros 

 

[kenf48]

17 minutes ago, gaffa said:

Ken, The discharge company is the last Company the guy was with, My Grandfather had been transferred several times and his history is very hard to find Possibly 270,279 ,486 852 & finally the 573. He went to Egypt, Gallipoli and Salonika plus some of the Islands around the Med i.e Murdros, Imbros, Skyros 

 

 

The above post which you have quoted was to assist in the interpretation of the service record of John Henry Perkins for forum pal Sian, for which I received a courteous thank you in March 2017.  There is no evidence your man followed the same route.  I am aware of the significance of the discharge unit.

 

Ken

[gaffa]

Ken go back to earlier posts Edwin Evan Williams his diary is what I am trying  to work out
Embarked from Avonmouth 8th March [No Coy or Regiment mentioned] on the Minnetonka.

Passed Gibraltar 12th March, Arrived Malta 17th March. Arrived Limnos, Greece 21st March

Left Limnos 24th March. Arrived at Port Said, Egypt 26th March

Left Port Said 13th April  Arrived Skyros 16th April.Left Skyros 24th April.

Arrived Saros 25th April At the Dardanelles the following night. 26th April

I can only presume he was working off loading/ help setting up Horse camp etc, on a [V or W?] Beach.

Left the Dards for Limnos on the 28th May  Arrived at Alexandria 3rd June 1915.

He then goe to Salonika 1916, He mentions transfers to different Coys ended up with 27th Division in Tiflis

Then ends with 573 Coy at Woolwich. I had assumed he was with 29th Division before I got his diary.

Gaffa

 

 

Edited 26 November , 2018 by gaffa
update

[JMSpencer]

On 26/11/2018 at 07:09, familyhistoryman said:

Jo

Can you let us know his name and number

Tony

Hi Tony

His name was Robert Leonard Green of 1-4 High Street Stanford le Hope. His number was 240091. I can read some of his record but reading it on the PC wasn't really good and printing it wasn't a lot better. But looking at his Army Form B103 he left Southampton-France in 1916 and on to Salonica in December the same year. He was in Alexandria in July 1917, and Kantara in January 1918 (discharged from hospital back to HQ RGA). He finally left Port Said in February 1919. I suspect, looking at it again, his 4-year service would have been up in 1918 so he just signed on again straight from Sick Leave. But I can’t read the B103 well enough to figure out why he was hospitalised. Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Jo.

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, JMSpencer said:

Hi Tony

His name was Robert Leonard Green of 1-4 High Street Stanford le Hope. His number was 240091. I can read some of his record but reading it on the PC wasn't really good and printing it wasn't a lot better. But looking at his Army Form B103 he left Southampton-France in 1916 and on to Salonica in December the same year. He was in Alexandria in July 1917, and Kantara in January 1918 (discharged from hospital back to HQ RGA). He finally left Port Said in February 1919. I suspect, looking at it again, his 4-year service would have been up in 1918 so he just signed on again straight from Sick Leave. But I can’t read the B103 well enough to figure out why he was hospitalised. Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Jo.

 

Men who enlisted in the Territorial Force prior to 1914 did so for ‘Home Service’.  Many signed the ‘Imperial Obligation’ on enlistment to serve overseas. 

Driver Green enlisted on the 29th September 1914, and signed the ‘obligation’ on enlistment (Army Form E 624).  This was common place for wartime enlistment.  He was posted to the 2/2nd London Division Divisional Train. The 2/2 was the second line or reserve Division of the 2nd London (TF) Division.  He served ‘at home’ with the Division until posted to the BEF on 22 June 1916, embarking  Southampton on the 22nd, landing at Havre the following day.  

See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/60th-division/

 

On the 1st September 1916 he was posted to the Regular ASC.  This effectively meant he was now in the Army for the duration of the war.  It was to a large extent an administrative device for the ASC.

I can see no evidence he was hospitalised in France.

 

There is a stamp on the record confirming he was medical classification ‘A’ dated 30/09/1917.

 

He moved to Salonica with the rest of the Division in November 1916.

On the 21 February 1917 he was appointed Acting Lance Corporal.

In July 1917 he moved with the Headquarters element of 60 Division ASC to Egypt, as in LLT link above.

 

He was admitted to hospital in Egypt with what appears to be cervical adentitis which according to Dr Google is a bacterial infection.

 

On 24 January 1918 he was posted to the Royal Garrison Artillery and reverted to Driver on relinquishing his duties with the ASC.  It was not a demotion as Lance Corporal was an appointment.

 

He then returned to the U.K. as you have seen and previously posted.  Throughout his service he was a driver, horse transport.

 

Ken

 

Edited 25 December , 2018 by kenf48

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Ken,

You are a credit to the Great War Forum!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[JMSpencer]

Thank

On 25/12/2018 at 22:59, kenf48 said:

 

Men who enlisted in the Territorial Force prior to 1914 did so for ‘Home Service’.  Many signed the ‘Imperial Obligation’ on enlistment to serve overseas. 

Driver Green enlisted on the 29th September 1914, and signed the ‘obligation’ on enlistment (Army Form E 624).  This was common place for wartime enlistment.  He was posted to the 2/2nd London Division Divisional Train. The 2/2 was the second line or reserve Division of the 2nd London (TF) Division.  He served ‘at home’ with the Division until posted to the BEF on 22 June 1916, embarking  Southampton on the 22nd, landing at Havre the following day.  

See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/60th-division/

 

On the 1st September 1916 he was posted to the Regular ASC.  This effectively meant he was now in the Army for the duration of the war.  It was to a large extent an administrative device for the ASC.

I can see no evidence he was hospitalised in France.

 

There is a stamp on the record confirming he was medical classification ‘A’ dated 30/09/1917.

 

He moved to Salonica with the rest of the Division in November 1916.

On the 21 February 1917 he was appointed Acting Lance Corporal.

In July 1917 he moved with the Headquarters element of 60 Division ASC to Egypt, as in LLT link above.

 

He was admitted to hospital in Egypt with what appears to be cervical adentitis which according to Dr Google is a bacterial infection.

 

On 24 January 1918 he was posted to the Royal Garrison Artillery and reverted to Driver on relinquishing his duties with the ASC.  It was not a demotion as Lance Corporal was an appointment.

 

He then returned to the U.K. as you have seen and previously posted.  Throughout his service he was a driver, horse transport.

 

Ken

 

Thanks Ken, that's terrific help! Very grateful for this. Fills in some big gaps for me; he never spoke of his WW1 service, not even to my father who passed away in 1999. There's few people left to ask..... Best wishes, Jo 

[rsp1991]

Hello everyone,

 

My apologies for reviving an old thread, but the information seems relevant to my research on my Great-Grandfather's experiences during WWI. His name was Stanley McDonald (Army No. T4/212489, Rank: Dvr, Regiment: Army Service Corp). He was born in Birkenhead (1896 approx.), and I'm sure his first name was actually Charles (second name Stanley). 

 

I managed to find his Medal Card via The National Archives using his service number. Unfortunately, it's lacking information, especially regarding dates, theatre of war. I remember my late grandmother telling me he served in Greece / Turkey, but I do have a box of his items in which there is a Salonika badge. I already knew he worked with horses, and the 'T4' prefix would seem to confirm this. He survived the war and died in 1971.

 

Could anyone provide me with any guidance / information about his movements, where he was stationed, duties etc.? I realise I don't have much information to go off, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Robert

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi rsp1991

Welcome to the forum.

It is laudable that you are trying to find out more information about your great-grandfather.

In order to increase your chances of doing that, you must first get your family tree sorted.

You need to do that by building on facts that you know to be true.

 

Firstly his name.

Is it really Charles Stanley McDonald?

It's not too difficult to confirm that fact with his birth certificate or even his death certificate if he died in 1971.

FreeBMD gives the following hit:

Deaths Mar 1971   (>99%)
MCDONALD	Charles Stanley	11No1895	Birkenhead	10a	265

 

Perhaps it is your GGF, but you need to pin down the dates a bit better.

Try and corroborate the dates with a death certificate to know for certain that this Charles Stanley was your GGF.

Or if a family member has details, a photo of his grave, that would be Good.

 

Then you can start trying to fill in his military career.

The medal card (MIC) you have linked to is available for free on Ancestry:

MIC

 

Did you have the number T4/212489 before starting to search, is the number definitely your GGF's, and one that can be proven to be his by something in your possession, like a medal, or a certificate?

 

The card shown, for Stanley McDonald, shows he didn't serve abroad before 1916.

That means it is extremely unlikely he served in Turkey (unless as part of the army of occupation after 1918).

He almost certainly didn't serve in Gallipoli, as that was evacuated by January 9th 1916.

This man seems to have been a Territorial Army man  and was invalided out of the Army and awarded a Silver War Badge.Others will be able to tell you when that occurred. Does that agree with family history?

 

 

What is the Salonika badge?

Post an image of it, any photos or and anything that has any identifying features.

We'll try and point you in the right direction.

 

 

 

Edited 29 June , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[BillyH]

If you are sure that his service number was T4/212489 then he joined the army as a Territorial on 26th August 1913.

He was discharged with a Silver War Badge on 3rd April 1919 (due to sickness). (Nephritis)

 

Was his father James McDonald of 53 Hilbre Street in Birkenhead?

 

BillyH.

Edited 29 June , 2020 by BillyH
Nephritis added.

[rsp1991]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Hi rsp1991

Welcome to the forum.

It is laudable that you are trying to find out more information about your great-grandfather.

In order to increase your chances of doing that, you must first get your family tree sorted.

You need to do that by building on facts that you know to be true.

 

Firstly his name.

Is it really Charles Stanley McDonald?

It's not too difficult to confirm that fact with his birth certificate or even his death certificate if he died in 1971.

FreeBMD gives the following hit:

Deaths Mar 1971   (>99%)
MCDONALD	Charles Stanley	11No1895	Birkenhead	10a	265

 

Perhaps it is your GGF, but you need to pin down the dates a bit better.

Try and corroborate the dates with a death certificate to know for certain that this Charles Stanley was your GGF.

Or if a family member has details, a photo of his grave, that would be Good.

 

Then you can start trying to fill in his military career.

The medal card (MIC) you have linked to is available for free on Ancestry:

MIC

 

Did you have the number T4/212489 before starting to search, is the number definitely your GGF's, and one that can be proven to be his by something in your possession, like a medal, or a certificate?

 

The card shown, for Stanley McDonald, shows he didn't serve abroad before 1916.

That means it is extremely unlikely he served in Turkey (unless as part of the army of occupation after 1918).

He almost certainly didn't serve in Gallipoli, as that was evacuated by January 9th 1916.

This man seems to have been a Territorial Army man  and was invalided out of the Army and awarded a Silver War Badge.Others will be able to tell you when that occurred. Does that agree with family history?

 

 

What is the Salonika badge?

Post an image of it, any photos or and anything that has any identifying features.

We'll try and point you in the right direction.

 

Hi Dai Bach y Sowldiwr,

 

Thank you for your response - it's greatly appreciated. After checking my research on Ancestry (death, birth, marriage certificates), I am certain his name was Charles Stanley McDonald. The 1971 date of death has been confirmed by my mother as well as his spouse's name, which corroborate with my findings online. There is some confusion because his Medal Index Card states 'Stanley McDonald', but I'm certain they relate to the same person. I retrieved the T4/212489 details from the rim of his medals (also Stanley).

 

Thank you for the information you've provided, that's great. I certainly wouldn't have been able to find that out. I think my grandmother might have been getting mixed up - perhaps thinking Salonika was Turkey. Unfortunately, there aren't any family members around to confirm whether this is true, but it is confirmed on his release certificate that he was disabled in the war. I have posted some images below which might be helpful. (Perhaps the spurs aren't helpful but they're pretty cool - and tiny!)

Any further info / tips would be great.

 

Thanks.

Edited 29 June , 2020 by rsp1991

[rsp1991]

1 hour ago, BillyH said:

If you are sure that his service number was T4/212489 then he joined the army as a Territorial on 26th August 1913.

He was discharged with a Silver War Badge on 3rd April 1919 (due to sickness). (Nephritis)

 

Was his father James McDonald of 53 Hilbre Street in Birkenhead?

 

BillyH.

Thank you BillyH, that's very interesting. Yes, his father was James McDonald. Out of curiosity, how did you manage to source this information? By serving in the army as a Territorial, what would life in the army entail? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, rsp1991 said:

I retrieved the T4/212489 details from the rim of his medals (also Stanley).

Ah well, that's definitely him then.

[BillyH]

Nephritis came from his pension ledger card. Enlistment date from his silver war badge record.

The family were living at different addresses in Birkenhead on 1911 census, 1914 (newspaper), and 1918 (pension card) 

If you haven't got a photo of him see below (Birkenhead News 19.12.1914)

 

BillyH.

 

Edited 29 June , 2020 by BillyH

[rsp1991]

This is fascinating - thank you so much.

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Robert,

I wouldn't discount the Turkish connection. After the Bulgarians had surrendered In October 1918 the 26th and 22nd Divisions moved East from Salonika to attack the Turks, however the Turks signed an armistice before any action took place, the 22nd returned to Salonika and the 26th moved north to form part of the Army of the Danube. The 28th Division moved from Salonika to the Dardenelles in November 1918 and became part of the army of occupation in Turkey. If the Turkish connection is valid, it seems likely that his ASC company was part of this division.

 

Something else doesn't quite add up though, the newspaper cutting posted by BillyH suggests he was in the ASC in December 1914, however his service number was allocated in the latter months of 1915, a check on near numbers will confirm this. He also has I think a Territorial Force War Medal the one with the yellow and green ribbon, a medal expert will tell you why this was awarded, but I think it also indicates service in 1914 but not necessarily overseas.