Help with uniform/regiment much appreciated

[BernieD]

This is my great uncle Edward. I would be grateful if someone could tell me something about his uniform.

Thanks if you can help, Bernie.

[jay dubaya]

Welcome to the forum Bernie, cap and collars are one of the fusilier regiments, the cap badge looks to have a cloth backing possibly blue, I'd go with Royal Scots Fusiliers post war. Nice barley twist chair with tapestry of a soldier?

What's Edwards full name and details

Jon

[Steven Broomfield]

Fusilier - possibly Royal Munster Fusiliers. he seems to have a cloth shamrock behind the badge, which I think I've seen photos of with the Munsters.

[Sepoy]

Fusilier - possibly Royal Munster Fusiliers. he seems to have a cloth shamrock behind the badge, which I think I've seen photos of with the Munsters.

I agree with Steve, he is in the Royal Munster Fusiliers

Sepoy

[BernieD]

Thank you ever so much. I had wondered about the backing on the hat badge because it looked like there was a bit of felt behind it. It makes sense, he was from Ireland (Tyrone) but lived all his adult life in Scotland. He never married and died in Glasgow area in 1958 (he was a labourer) . His surname was Donaghey (with or without the "e" and could have a variation on same surname). I have his photo but nothing else.

His brother (my grandfather) was also in the army in WW1, and the complete opposite, I have no photos of him in an army uniform but I can find his records. Apparently my grandad signed up with the Connaught Rangers first and then was transferred to the Royal Irish Regiment.

I only know Edward was involved with WW1 and the photo was from roughly that time. But yes suppose post war possibly and the bit of felt could be something to do with Ireland or Scotland. I had no idea this was done. And thanks Sepoy for the Royal Munster Fusilier badge photo. My apologies for being so ignorant, learn as I go along. Thanks again, Bernie.

[FROGSMILE]

Great picture of a Royal Munster Fusilier with the famous green shamrock patch that they had fought so hard for, even to the extent of queries in Parliament. He is also wearing the brown leather 1903 pattern Slade-Wallace belt that replaced the previous buff (nubuck) leather version. He also wears regimental pattern collar badges rather than the universal grenade.

[BernieD]

Thank you so much. The Royal Munster Fusilier's would never have crossed my mind. I spent ages googling for pictures of WW1 uniforms to see if I could find anything similar until I was eventually led here. Should have started here first! Interesting information about the belt, collar badges and of course the the cap badge. You have all been very helpful. Researching Army uniforms and insignia sounds as if it can be pretty addictive, Frogsmile.

[FROGSMILE]

"Researching Army uniforms and insignia sounds as if it can be pretty addictive, Frogsmile."

Indeed it is Bernie.

The RMF had a number of their soldiers photographed wearing their full dress collar badge on khaki, which was unusual.

In 1897 and 1898 there had been much controversy over the regiment wearing a shamrock as insignia/embellishment to the extent that the subject was raised in parliament. It has made me feel a little ashamed to read it and all the more determined to honour the memory of so many brave Irish soldiers of the British Army.

1. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...ster-fusiliers

2. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...8970401_HOC_95

It is noticeable that a certain 'Captain Anthony Donelan' seemed to take a mischievous delight in these debates.

Captain Anthony John Charles Donelan (1846 – 12 September 1924) was a soldier and Irish nationalist politician. He was a Member of Parliament (MP) for East Cork from 1892 to 1910, and for East Wicklow from 1911 to 18.

Donelan came from an Irish Protestant landlord family who had extensive property and a strong military tradition. His father was Colonel of the 48th Regiment, and his grandfather was killed in action at the Battle of Talavera in the Peninsular War. His mother was Sarah, daughter of John Johnson of Holbeach, Lincolnshire. Donelan was educated privately and at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, and was commissioned into the Norfolk Regiment, being stationed for some time at Corfu.

He was elected unopposed at East Cork as an Anti-Parnellite MP in the general election 1892 and 1895, taking his seat in the House of Commons in the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. For many years Donelan was Chief Whip of the Irish Party. He retired from Parliament at the general election in December 1918. His funeral at Midleton, Co. Cork, on Sunday 14 September 1924 was attended by thousands of people.

[BernieD]

Thanks again Frogsmile, I am really grateful to you for passing on your knowledge. And you are right there were many Irish men serving in the British Army during WW1 and it is acknowledged much more now than previously. Some of those who survived, if they werent wounded, had to carry their mental scars and maybe never mention them again. I know at one stage my grandfather, Edwards brother, was a stretcher bearer and some of the things he must have witnessed are unthinkable to me. I am delighted to be able to add what I have learned to my family tree, puts flesh on the bones as we sometimes say. I enjoy the detective work involved with a family tree, and while different I totally understand your passion with uniforms and the insignia involved with the British Army.

[BernieD]

PS Frogsmile, forgot to thank you for the information about Captain Donelan and the House of Commons debates.

[BernieD]

Sorry to be back again, a lot of things going on in my mind. Dress uniform as opposed to others in particular? This man didnt have any stripes, or any army history that I know of so in my simple mind wonder why this photo was taken, and wondering why he is wearing such a uniform. I know he was born in Tyrone (Ireland) and moved to Scotland to find work sometime between 1901/1911 he is on the the Scottish census of 1911 living in Falkirk and I know he died in Glasgow in 1958. And so what Jon said earlier about the blue was a possibility. The RMF really threw me, I had no reason to even think that way. You have given me some avenues to search, all I had was his photo and brief details about him. Perhaps there were people recruiting these men which would explain finding people where you wouldnt expect, will look at that at a later stage.

[FROGSMILE]

PS Frogsmile, forgot to thank you for the information about Captain Donelan and the House of Commons debates.

It is my pleasure Bernie. I am just thankful that we still have good Irish soldiers in the British Army in regiments such as the Irish Guards, whose uniform The Duke of Cambridge wore at his wedding, and the Royal Irish Regiment. They are both fine units and I was fortunate to serve with some of their soldiers over the last 4 decades.

[FROGSMILE]

Sorry to be back again, a lot of things going on in my mind. Dress uniform as opposed to others in particular? This man didnt have any stripes, or any army history that I know of so in my simple mind wonder why this photo was taken, and wondering why he is wearing such a uniform. I know he was born in Tyrone (Ireland) and moved to Scotland to find work sometime between 1901/1911 he is on the the Scottish census of 1911 living in Falkirk and I know he died in Glasgow in 1958. And so what Jon said earlier about the blue was a possibility. The RMF really threw me, I had no reason to even think that way. You have given me some avenues to search, all I had was his photo and brief details about him. Perhaps there were people recruiting these men which would explain finding people where you wouldnt expect, will look at that at a later stage.

I am not 100% clear what you are askng here Bernie? In general a soldier was equipped with two forms of dress, Full Dress (his best uniform) and Undress (his working uniform). Before 1902 the latter had several forms, depending upon where he was serving and what duties he was undertaking.

After 1902 the number of undress uniforms was reduced, with the khaki service dress (SD) that he is wearing in the photo used for most duties, but also a canvas fatigue suit (for dirty jobs) and, in some Stations, a blue serge 'patrol' uniform used for smarter purposes that did not justify the Full Dress. This latter's jacket had an upright collar worn without badges by the RMF and four pockets with brass buttons, two on the chest and two on the skirt (lower part below the waist). It was worn with matching dark blue trousers that had a 1/4 inch scarlet welt down the outer seam.

The RMF were unusual in that several men used their best collar badges on their khaki SD when wishing to appear at their smartest for WW1 photographs. That said, this was not always the case and must to a degree have depended on the man concerned having his best collar badges to hand.

I enclose an image of Full Dress and rank and file regimental collar badges. Both, sergeants and officers had a slightly different pattern.

I am sure that the following websites would be grateful for a copy of your photo: www.royalmunsterfusiliers.org and www.royalmunsterfusiliers.co.uk

It is very likely that your relative had this photo taken as a last keepsake for his family before going off to fight. The vast majority of men did this. The shamrock badge backing was a good Irish green colour. Unlike the other parts of the then UK, there was no conscription in Ireland so he was a volunteer.

The RMF recruited in the counties of Clare, Cork, Kerry and Limerick, and the regimental HQ and depot was located at Tralee, in co Kerry.

[Steven Broomfield]

. And so what Jon said earlier about the blue was a possibility.

The suggestion of Royal Scots Fusiliers (in Post 2) is extremely unlikely; a soldier of the RSF would usually wear a Glengarry (a sort of side hat, for want of a better description) or Tam o' Shanter (a large beret with a bobble on top!) with a far larger badge than in your picture.

As I suggested and Frogsmile confirms, this is definitely a Royal Munster Fusilier. The fact he was living in Glasgow is no reason to deter him from enlisting in an Irish regiment (albeit a regiment from the South whereas I assume Tyrone is in the North). He may have been posted to the RMF to make up numbers, he may have requested it ... we'll never know, but I am certain he's RMF.

[BernieD]

Thanks again Frogsmile and Steven. I certainly have no doubts now that it is a Royal Munster Fusilier uniform, I just simply didnt know at the start.

So I take it that "The RMF were unusual in that several men used their best collar badges on their khaki SD when wishing to appear at their smartest for WW1 photographs" pretty much covers what the Soldier in the photo above is wearing. The websites mentioned will be more than welcome to a copy of the photo if they want so I will follow that up.

When you come from practically knowing nothing to finding out so much within a couple of days it does take a while for it all to sink in properly, hence my confusion at times. I really cant thank you all enough for your help, especially Frogsmile who went well out of his way for me.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks again Frogsmile and Steven. I certainly have no doubts now that it is a Royal Munster Fusilier uniform, I just simply didnt know at the start.

So I take it that "The RMF were unusual in that several men used their best collar badges on their khaki SD when wishing to appear at their smartest for WW1 photographs" pretty much covers what the Soldier in the photo above is wearing. The websites mentioned will be more than welcome to a copy of the photo if they want so I will follow that up.

When you come from practically knowing nothing to finding out so much within a couple of days it does take a while for it all to sink in properly, hence my confusion at times. I really cant thank you all enough for your help, especially Frogsmile who went well out of his way for me.

Glad to help Bernie. Never hesitate to ask a question. Generally this forum will always try to assist.

[Steven Broomfield]

especially Frogsmile who went well out of his way for me.

He just likes showing off

(Actually, I agree with you. He's a good chap).

[IPT]

There was a 4124 Private Edward Donaghie, Royal Munster Fusiliers.

[BernieD]

Gets even better, sounds like a definite possibility, Cheers IPT.

[Andy Wade]

Medal Card and Medal Roll information:

4124 Pte Edward Donaghie 9/R.Munst.Fus.Pte 4124. 1/R.Munst.Fus.

Entered France on 19/12/1915.

Awarded Victory Medal, British War Medal, 15 Star.

Class Z Army Reserve 14.3.19.

Looks like the 15 Star was returned, could this be an error in naming:

Retd. 1743 KR 1912 CRV 316/B 30.11.23 8153/adt

[IPT]

Looks like the 15 Star was returned, could this be an error in naming:

Retd. 1743 KR 1912 CRV 316/B 30.11.23 8153/adt

I think that may be mean that they were returned to Woolwich to be broken up, as they were unclaimed.

[FROGSMILE]

Medal Card and Medal Roll information:

4124 Pte Edward Donaghie 9/R.Munst.Fus.Pte 4124. 1/R.Munst.Fus.

Entered France on 19/12/1915.

Awarded Victory Medal, British War Medal, 15 Star.

Class Z Army Reserve 14.3.19.

Looks like the 15 Star was returned, could this be an error in naming:

Retd. 1743 KR 1912 CRV 316/B 30.11.23 8153/adt

From 'Long, Long Trail':

9th (Service) Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers

Formed in October 1914 as part of Kitchener's Second Army (K2) and came under orders of 48th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division. Moved to Kilworth, then Ballyvonare in January 1915 and Ballyhooley in June. Moved to England in September 1915, going to Blackdown.

20 December 1915 : landed at Le Havre.

30 May 1916 : disbanded in France, troops going to 1st, 2nd and 8th Bns.

1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers ( a Regular Army unit)

1 January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli to Egypt.

13 March 1916 : sailed from Port Said to Marseilles for service in France.

25 April 1916 : transferred to Lines of Communication.

28 May 1916 : transferred to 48th Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division and absorbed 3 officers and 146 men from disbanded 9th Bn.

22 November 1916 : transferred to 47th Brigade in same Division and absorbed more than 400 troops from disbanded 8th Bn.

19 April 1918 : absorbed troops from 2nd Bn and next day transferred to 172nd Brigade in 57th (2nd North Midland) Division. Remained with 57th Div until Armistice, where it finished up at Lille, France.

[Andy Wade]

Looks like the 15 Star was returned, could this be an error in naming:

Retd. 1743 KR 1912 CRV 316/B 30.11.23 8153/adt

I think that may be mean that they were returned to Woolwich to be broken up, as they were unclaimed.

It's just annotated on the 1915 Star roll though, not the VM/BWM roll. I wondered if 'adt' meant adjustment? I'm sure I'd seen it somewhere on here...

[BernieD]

I think Edward may at least have received the Victory and British war medals because of something my father once said. I remember asking once how many medals my grandfather (Edward's brother) received and dad said 4, I think. Well that is not true because my grandfather was awarded two which I discovered when I first found his medal card (I have his Victory medal). Dad also mentioned the medals were shared out amongst the brothers of his family. I cant be sure but I think this includes Edward's as well as my grandfathers especially as my gran went over to Scotland to sign his death cert in 1958. My father had four brothers living well into adulthood so the 4 could mean 4 and the unmarried one was left out, or indeed there were 5 in total.

In any case, from my own interpretation the 15 star medal could have been returned for a few reasons, and actually my first thought was because it was meant for someone else. A variation of names is a possibility as is moving about, him moving could well play a part especially as he wasn't married and the family would have spread also. Of course I have no idea what Edward thought himself, maybe he did return all but I dont think so.

[FROGSMILE]

I think Edward may at least have received the Victory and British war medals because of something my father once said. I remember asking once how many medals my grandfather (Edward's brother) received and dad said 4, I think. Well that is not true because my grandfather was awarded two which I discovered when I first found his medal card (I have his Victory medal). Dad also mentioned the medals were shared out amongst the brothers of his family. I cant be sure but I think this includes Edward's as well as my grandfathers especially as my gran went over to Scotland to sign his death cert in 1958. My father had four brothers living well into adulthood so the 4 could mean 4 and the unmarried one was left out, or indeed there were 5 in total.

In any case, from my own interpretation the 15 star medal could have been returned for a few reasons, and actually my first thought was because it was meant for someone else. A variation of names is a possibility as is moving about, him moving could well play a part especially as he wasn't married and the family would have spread also. Of course I have no idea what Edward thought himself, maybe he did return all but I dont think so.

He was certainly entitled to the 15 Star Bernie and I can only think that he might well have returned the medal because it had the wrong regimental number on it, he would then have seen it as rightfully belonging to someone else and probably felt a moral obligation to return it. He probably then expected his correct medal to be forwarded but there were so many medals to issue and as the war years passed into memory he no doubt found he had other priorities to think about.