Photos of RND soldiers interned in Groningen (Timbertown)

[horatio2]

The Fleet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy) holds the NMRN's extensive archive of Royal Naval Division records and other material. You could contact them on acquisitions@nmrn.org.uk 

[NR72]

2 hours ago, Antony ives said:

My wife’s grandfather AB Charles Haswell RNVR , L5/3191 Collingwood Bttn First Royal Naval Brigade , was interned in Groningen, I have his medals and a book of the camp magazines from the first one in April 1915 to December 1916 , do you think any museums woul be interested in these magazines as they should be seen and not just put in a drawer? 

Hi Anthony ,

 

Sadly I think the answer would be probably no. Is there no one in the family that you could hand them down to?

[JWK]

12 hours ago, Antony ives said:

My wife’s grandfather AB Charles Haswell RNVR , L5/3191 Collingwood Bttn First Royal Naval Brigade , was interned in Groningen, I have his medals and a book of the camp magazines from the first one in April 1915 to December 1916 , do you think any museums woul be interested in these magazines as they should be seen and not just put in a drawer? 

 

Hi Antony, welcome to the forum!

 

As regards your book of Camp Magazines: this looks to be the first volume. There is also a second volume for 1917/1918.

I checked the Groningen archives, but they already have both volumes.

Maybe best to donate it to a library/museum/historical society in the town/area your wife's grandfather was from, so as not to lose the connection ?

 

There's one Haswell in the Rotterdam archives, A.B. W. Haswell, Collingwood Btln. Is that him?

 

[horatio2]

Antony's information is correct but there were two HASWELLs interned at Groningen: Able Seaman Charles HASWELL, London 5/3191, and Able Seaman William Frederick Charlton HASWELL, Tyneside 3/181, both Collingwood Battalion.

Edited 7 April , 2020 by horatio2

[carlosrocha]

Helping a friend with some family research and stumbled across this post.  Found a pic of his great great Uncle, Joe Manning, who appears to have successfully escaped back to England as his service record has him back in England early 1918.

 

What an amazing resource; my friend is absolutely bowled over. 

 

Thanks for sharing the link.

[horatio2]

10 hours ago, carlosrocha said:

appears to have successfully escaped back to England as his service record has him back in England early 1918.

Not so. His RND record shows that he was an internee for the whole of the war. However, as was quite usual, he was granted leave in UK 20 Jan to 17 Feb 1917 and, again, on 29 Oct 1918 which was extended to beyond the Armistice so that was, in effect, the date of his repatriation. So he was in England in early 1917 but not in early 1918 and he never escaped.

[carlosrocha]

Aha interesting!  On the service sheet I have it states:

 

Victory (RND Benbow)   17 Sept 14 to 28 Feb 18

 

Then underneath it states Victory IX 1 Jan 18 to 12 Jan 19

 

Why would he be assigned to Victory IX?  Was that for purposes of pay/admin?

 

Regards

Carlos 

[horatio2]

All the internees in Holland were borne for pay and admin on the books of HMS VICTORY IX at Portsmouth, as shown on his RN record (ADM 188). For a more full record of his WW1 movements you need to download his RND record card (ADM 339) -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7283309

 

"Then underneath it states Victory IX 1 Jan 18 to 12 Jan 19"

That actually reads 1 Mar 18.

Edited 9 July , 2020 by horatio2

[carlosrocha]

Brilliant thank you!

[Niko]

Interesting account from Albert Mecklenburg, which places the -for me elusive until now- Benbow Battalion BEHIND Fort2, which is really very consistent with the existing frontline trenches. it's in fact a pivot position, facing NORTH.

Here is a map from the Belgian archives, published in our book '2 dorpen, 2 forten, 1 oorlog', showing the Belgian trenches in the area:

Edited 30 June , 2021 by Niko

[Niko]

I have updated one of my maps, another problem solved, I guess....

It's strange how sometimes 2 words can give the answer to something you've been searching for so long.

[horatio2]

Niko

I was very interested to read you comment on the disposition of Benbow Battalion at Antwerp. I am not familiar with the “interesting account from Albert Mecklenburg” [a.k.a. Sub Lt Mexborough]. Can you give some more detail from his account, please?

The Benbow MO, Surgeon Williamson RNVR, gives a bit more detail, stating:-

Wednesday 7 October - We are just within the second ring of forts and I think we are supposed to be in reserve today.  I believe our firing line are in trenches just outside the second line of forts.

Thursday 8 October - 2 p.m.  Things are going awfully badly.  Our Collingwood Battalion has been badly smashed up by shell fire and we have just sent off our ‘B’ Company to reinforce them.  Colonel Maxwell, commander of Collingwood, has been killed.  The rest of us will probably be moved up shortly to support them. About 4 p.m. our ‘D’ Company were sent off to relieve the Hawkes.  Commander Fargus told me to stay behind with him.  A little later ‘C’ Company was sent off to Fort 4.  I was again told by the Commander to remain behind though only ‘A’ Company was now left.  We expected every moment to be moved off, either to the advanced trenches or to one of the forts. About 7 or 7.30 p.m. we were again assembled and were told a general retirement was to take place.  We were marched into the village of Borsbeek. and waited there for a long time while some of the other battalions joined us.  We then set off in a south-westerly direction taking all the small lanes.

Thus, even before the retreat began, the Benbow companies were dispersed and the battalion had lost all coherence. Could the HQ asnd RV at Borsbeek match the detail in your maps?

 

Edited 30 June , 2021 by horatio2

[Niko]

The account of Albert Mecklenburg is in this tread!

Borsbeek fits nicely into the story, it is the village between fort2 and fort3, roughly where the Hawke was posted. There was the military road (still referred to today as the Krijgsbaan) connecting all the forts in this semi circle, so to get to the scheldt, Benbow used this road to Borsbeek and then took to the small roads between the Antwerp remparts and the military road, as the last might have become very dangerous by then, to reach the Schelde crossings, as many units did. Others decided to take the shorter, direct route through the city, which, by then was also under artillery fire.

It is possible that Benbow was in reserve behind Fort2, but I cannot think of a suitable area there, so they most probably were in the trenches I mentioned before.

To make a long story short: Fort1 was no longer considered as a fortified position by the Belgian army, they cut the line from fort2 towards the old remparts of Antwerp. Before it, the valley of the river Schijn was inundated.

When war came, the army decided to man fort1 nevertheless, so that made the trenches between fort2 and the remparts become part of an extra 'second line', so they made good reserve positions. 

The shattering of the Benbow explains the faith of Sub Lt. Ridge, as he was killed near Fort4 in Mortsel.

I enclose a map from 1938, showing Borsbeek and the military road.

[horatio2]

On 30/06/2021 at 12:19, Niko said:

The account of Albert Mecklenburg is in this tread!

Of course it is. It helps if I go to the startof the thread instead of the start of the page  

Edited 2 July , 2021 by horatio2

[Niko]

If I read all our conversations, it seems that we have to meet up someday around here. I guess that would be enlightening to us both..... 

Edited 30 June , 2021 by Niko

[JWK]

Last year the Groningen Archives digitalised a photo-album (1oo pages) by RND internees in Groningen ("Timbertown"), with many studio-photos, signatures, group-pictures, artwork, poems etc.

https://www.groningerarchieven.nl/archieven?mivast=5&mizig=210&miadt=5&miaet=1&micode=2139&minr=4447637&miq=1213978813&miview=inv2&milang=nl

Looks to be a memento made by Len Langmaid, Hawke Btln., his studio photo in civilian dress in on the first page, "to Pien" (Maybe his Groningen sweetheart?), with signatures of all those who worked in the different offices, groupphotos etc.

 

Quite a departure from his "mugshot" in the Police archives in Rotterdam:

Don't know why the archives put the watermark on it, and why the scans are not downloadable, but I'm sure if you ask nicely they'll send you an unwatermarked scan.

Photos of E.L. Langmaid, (Owen?) T. Ashton, W. Batstone, Tom W. Brown, Jack Russell-Platten, C. (Len) Sloter, A.A. Evans, B. Brenner (as the "Rajah of Bhong"), C.E. Clarke, E.G. Clarke, R..J. Derbyshire, H.J.Cantor.

Groupphotos of the Orchestra, YMCA, Acrobatic group, Operatic Society, and Timbertown Follies.

*edited* to add the link!

 

Edited 12 June , 2022 by JWK