alanlw Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Just trying to identify someone and their regiment on our local Roll of Honour. After Sidney Bailey's name it says "N. Wales Brigade A.S.C." A quick Google reveals a 158th N Wales Brigade but I'm not sure of the Army Service Corps connection, but then I don't really understand how the army units all worked together. Can anyone clarify this for me please? I cannot find any MIC for him as yet - should I be looking for Army Service Corps or something else? If I knew where his unit was in the war it might help with the search for his MIC - the RoH is from 1915 so he might have qualified for a 1914 or 1915 Star if he went to France, but otherwise not. The most likely candidate (a Sydney Bailey, not Sidney) I've found is living in Llanfair and Dyffryn Clwyd in the 1911 census, having lived in Heaton, Staffordshire (near the RoH in Rushton) until a few years earlier so that could well fit. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Hello alanlw In the pre-war organisation of the Territorial Force, each infantry brigade (three per division) trained with an ASC company and there was a fourth such company for the troops of the division other than infantry. In wartime these four companies formed the Divisional Train. 158 Infantry Brigade was part of 53rd (Welsh) Division and your man's company was part of 53rd Divisional Train ASC, the division's transport and supply unit. The division went to Gallipoli in 1915 and moved to Egypt in January 1916, remaining there or in Palestine for the rest of the war. If he went to Gallipoli he should have qualified for the 1914-15 Star, and in any case he should have qualified for the British War Medal and Victory Medal, so carry on searching the MICs. Of course, he may never have served overseas at all, dying at home from illness or accident, in which case there would be no medal entitlement. Likewise he may have been transferred to another unit, possibly a reserve unit at home, when 53rd Division went abroad. Sydney rather than Sidney is a definite possibility! Mistakes in spelling names on war memorials are not uncommon. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 The North Wales Brigade Company ASC was, as Ron says, part of the Welsh Divisional Transport and Supply Column. The company was headquartered at Ruthin but also operated at Cerrig-y-Druidion, Caerwys and St Asaph. The original Welsh Divisional Transport and Supply Column did not go to the Med with the Welsh Division. It remained at home until July 1916 when it transferred to join 11th (Northern) Division in France. The companies of the Column were renumbered to 479, 480, 481 and 482 Companies ASC: the North Wales Brigade Company became 481 Company ASC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 They were administered by the Denbighshire Territorial Association. Strength at 12 2 1914 was N W Bde ASC 1Officer 60 OR (establisment of 4 & 97) Strength as at 5 7 1915 was 1st N W Bde Coy, ASC 5 Officers, 108 OR 2nd N W Bde Coy, ASC 5 Officers, 100 OR 3rd N W Bde Coy, ASC 1 Officer, 23 OR I would imagine it was 1st Coy went to Gallipoli etc and 2nd Coy were with the 2nd Line TF units that replaced the 1st line in Eastern England when they moved out to Gallipoli July 1915. He is not at that LlanfairDC address in the 1918 AVL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Thanks Chris I'm away from my sources at the moment so I couldn't check, but what you say makes sense. But if he died in 1915 it seems that he probably died at home, hence no MIC. Could be have qualified for a Silver War Badge? I assume not, unless they were given to the next of kin. I'm also assuming that the Roll of Honour only recorded the dead, but of course many of them recorded all who served. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Bang goes my theory then <grin> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Looks like you were on right track with the Ruthin address (right hand column) http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3611287/ART19/sidney%20bailey Some other names there to look for a number pattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 I can confirm quite a few Ruthin men in ASC 1733xx and 1734xx with some even showing as 11th Div Train. This makes Sidney Bailey T4/173359 and M331479 in the MICs as the most likely. The Rolls do not give an unit for the fist number but state he trans to ASC Motor Branch 31 8 1917. Is it a Roll of Honour or Roll of Service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanlw Posted 6 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Thanks Chris I'm away from my sources at the moment so I couldn't check, but what you say makes sense. But if he died in 1915 it seems that he probably died at home, hence no MIC. Could be have qualified for a Silver War Badge? I assume not, unless they were given to the next of kin. I'm also assuming that the Roll of Honour only recorded the dead, but of course many of them recorded all who served. Ron Thanks to everyone so far, very helpful. However, he did not die in the war, this was a list of those who had served up until some point in 1915, i.e. it was only an interim RoH created in 1915 or perhaps early 1916. The final one is much less useful as it only says S Bailey with no indication of regiment. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanlw Posted 6 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2014 I can confirm quite a few Ruthin men in ASC 1733xx and 1734xx with some even showing as 11th Div Train. This makes Sidney Bailey T4/173359 and M331479 in the MICs as the most likely. The Rolls do not give an unit for the fist number but state he trans to ASC Motor Branch 31 8 1917. Is it a Roll of Honour or Roll of Service? It's called a Roll of Honour but as stated above listed the men who had served in 1914 and 1915, most of whom were still alive at that time. I have posted a picture elsewhere on another topic - see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220242&hl= I'll try and find those MICs - thanks. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Just to make it a bit more likely and possibly a clincher. That Ben Mostyn in the newspaper list. I can confirm Benjamin Reece Powell Mostyn T4/173358, next number to the one I propose is yours, is from 7 Park Terrace, Park Rd, Ruthin. Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanlw Posted 6 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Just to make it a bit more likely and possibly a clincher. That Ben Mostyn in the newspaper list. I can confirm Benjamin Reece Powell Mostyn T4/173358, next number to the one I propose is yours, is from 7 Park Terrace, Park Rd, Ruthin. Hywyn I'm convinced! Thanks ever so much.(Assume you found Mostyn's service or pension records?) I have found the MIC on Ancestry. The newspaper article is fantastic as Bailey was at the same address in 1911. He only got Victory and War medals so that fits nicely with Chris_Baker's statement that "The original Welsh Divisional Transport and Supply Column did not go to the Med with the Welsh Division. It remained at home until July 1916 when it transferred to join 11th (Northern) Division in France. " Do I understand correctly that the second regimental number, M/331479, shows he transferred to the ASC Motor Branch? But I see no date on the MIC so where does your suggested transfer date of 31 8 1917 come from? I am also in touch with Bailey's great niece. She'll be over the moon to hear all this. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hywyn Posted 6 November , 2014 Share Posted 6 November , 2014 Mostyn is on Absent Voters to that address (Bailey isn't). The transfer date is from the Medal Rolls. They came online on Ancestry today. Might have crashed at the mo though as I can't get in. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220271&hl= Hywyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanlw Posted 7 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2014 Mostyn is on Absent Voters to that address (Bailey isn't). The transfer date is from the Medal Rolls. They came online on Ancestry today. Might have crashed at the mo though as I can't get in. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220271&hl= Hywyn Didn't know about the medal rolls at all, although I had come across the silver war badge rolls. I have now found Bailey on the medal rolls on Ancestry (under 'new records') and indeed other men I am researching. A great addition to their records. The Absent Voters' List I have also only recently discovered and they are wonderful for tracing those who returned. Was looking at then in Chester the other day for the Wincle Memorial, but Stafford tell me they never had them for Staffordshire so I can't check the men on the Rushton Memorial. Thanks again. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanlw Posted 7 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2014 The transfer date is from the Medal Rolls. They came online on Ancestry today. Might have crashed at the mo though as I can't get in. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220271&hl= Hywyn Trying to figure out the theatre of war he served in. There's just a tick in column 2. Others on other pages have ticks in column 1 or 3 but I can't find a clue as what each column means. Been back to the start of the volume but no clue there. Any ideas? (I'm assuming in this case it was France in 1916). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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