Discarding of Swords by Officers (All Regiments)

[seaforth78]

There seems to be, from my reading, a divide in the officers' attitudes with regard to standing out or, blending in. This is not something I've researched but it could be attributable to the previous service and age of some officers.

Lieutenant Duncan Malcolm Kennedy, 2nd Scottish Rifles, realised this in March 1915 when his Coy Commander, Captain Ferrers ordered all the officers of B Company to lead the attack with their swords. Lt. Colonel Bliss and all the other Coy commanders by contrast went over the top swordless so at least in this battalion there was discretion granted to Coy commanders. Perhaps, maybe there was more to it; Bliss the CO was a 1st Battalion man and was just posted to command the 2nd SF the year before and was not popular. Certainly Fererrs, from what the late Colonel Baynes told me, that former was not a man to put upon and thus only B Coy officers went over the top with their swords. Both Kennedy and Ferrers were badly hit but survived.

Captain Brown, 5th Gurkha Rifles at Gallipoli led his Coy in a charge with his sword against the Turks on the first day, the only officer of the battalion that day to do so. So, plenty of hits and misses. A lot of personal choice it seems.

[aussiesoldier]

Perhaps we of the Antipodes have a finer sense of self-preservation and less need to display authority preferring to lead by example. I don't know the figures regarding promotion from the ranks for WW1, but I suspect, considering the number of VC, DSO/DSC, and multiple MM/MC award winners that end the war with Capt/Major ranks, that by 1917/1918 many officers in the ANZAC Corps (yes I know Corps Corps but how else do your write it!) were talented men promoted on the basis of ability and vacancy.

Many years of service with the Infantry in Australia proves to me that Diggers will follow anyone who leads well, even into the jaws of hell, if the objective and their role is explained, and they are competently led.

Flinging a fellow officer into a ditch! Could get your head knocked off by an Aussie for that.

Ref Wiki. As a teacher I also use wiki but always double check the key facts. Some articles are particularly scholarly, especially the Ancient History sections. Helpful with some of the obscure things we teach.

[Guest]

Perhaps we of the Antipodes have a finer sense of self-preservation and less need to display authority preferring to lead by example. I don't know the figures regarding promotion from the ranks for WW1, but I suspect, considering the number of VC, DSO/DSC, and multiple MM/MC award winners that end the war with Capt/Major ranks, that by 1917/1918 many officers in the ANZAC Corps (yes I know Corps Corps but how else do your write it!) were talented men promoted on the basis of ability and vacancy.

Many years of service with the Infantry in Australia proves to me that Diggers will follow anyone who leads well, even into the jaws of hell, if the objective and their role is explained, and they are competently led.

Flinging a fellow officer into a ditch! Could get your head knocked off by an Aussie for that.

Ref Wiki. As a teacher I also use wiki but always double check the key facts. Some articles are particularly scholarly, especially the Ancient History sections. Helpful with some of the obscure things we teach.

Are these qualities the preserve of Australian-born or do they also apply to the many ANZACs who were British by birth?

[seaforths]

Perhaps we of the Antipodes have a finer sense of self-preservation and less need to display authority preferring to lead by example. I don't know the figures regarding promotion from the ranks for WW1, but I suspect, considering the number of VC, DSO/DSC, and multiple MM/MC award winners that end the war with Capt/Major ranks, that by 1917/1918 many officers in the ANZAC Corps (yes I know Corps Corps but how else do your write it!) were talented men promoted on the basis of ability and vacancy.

Many years of service with the Infantry in Australia proves to me that Diggers will follow anyone who leads well, even into the jaws of hell, if the objective and their role is explained, and they are competently led.

Flinging a fellow officer into a ditch! Could get your head knocked off by an Aussie for that.

Ref Wiki. As a teacher I also use wiki but always double check the key facts. Some articles are particularly scholarly, especially the Ancient History sections. Helpful with some of the obscure things we teach.

I don't think the ANZACs had the monopoly on leading by example and you seem to have missed a key point. The officer who was treated badly by a fellow officer was not identifiable as an officer by his uniform his protests went unheard and earned him the shoddy treatment. After the event, an official protest was made and the Division concerned offered to remove the large amount of prisoners from their claimed prisoner tally or, go halves (memory lets me down on this point). The response was keep them, we captured so many, we can afford it.

[seaforths]

Lieutenant Duncan Malcolm Kennedy, 2nd Scottish Rifles, realised this in March 1915 when his Coy Commander, Captain Ferrers ordered all the officers of B Company to lead the attack with their swords. Lt. Colonel Bliss and all the other Coy commanders by contrast went over the top swordless so at least in this battalion there was discretion granted to Coy commanders. Perhaps, maybe there was more to it; Bliss the CO was a 1st Battalion man and was just posted to command the 2nd SF the year before and was not popular. Certainly Fererrs, from what the late Colonel Baynes told me, that former was not a man to put upon and thus only B Coy officers went over the top with their swords. Both Kennedy and Ferrers were badly hit but survived.

Captain Brown, 5th Gurkha Rifles at Gallipoli led his Coy in a charge with his sword against the Turks on the first day, the only officer of the battalion that day to do so. So, plenty of hits and misses. A lot of personal choice it seems.

Thank you S78. I think that is a fine example of those for and against swords and possibly being less easily recognisable to the enemy. It would seem that the majority opted not to take them and so, probably has nothing to do with their age and time served prior to the war.

Something I should have added to my last post in response to aussiesoldier; making oneself less conspicuous to the enemy and gaining some self preservation, to enable you to lead your men and Low Moral Fibre (LMF) are two very separate things. I was not implying the latter and probably should have made that quite clear.

[aussiesoldier]

I must admit I did not necessarily make the link between LMF and not being readily identifiable. Maybe just too used to officers removing rank as part of the nature of counter-insurgency warfare (Vietnam and Afghanistan; we never used sir = skipper, boss, etc.

Interesting also the degree to which German officers abandoned swords once trench warfare was entered into. Photographs seem to show that many seem to have opted initially for the M1898, a/A (alter Art = older model), M1898, and later for the standard M1898/05 'butcher blade' , both with officer portepee. I haven't been able to find frontline photographs of German officers after Christmas, 1914. Common sense on both sides?

We do seem to have strayed off the topic. For my part - I apologise but perhaps this helps us back on the path.

[seaforths]

In the early days of the Territorial Bns. going into the war, first name terms with officers was established even before the war started. They were after all, Territorials and their officers were Jim from the bank and Davey the solicitor. However, I digress too...

I did see an old book for sale on duelling in the army, a little while ago. I'll have to revisit the site and see if it's still there... Perhaps initially, it was an historical thing on both sides; an officer and his sword, going into battle with cold steel, until of course, common sense prevailed on both sides when the lines became more static and much of the fighting was carried out from a distance until one side decided to try and make the other move. Whether it took a little longer with one side or the other for the penny to drop in leaving swords out, is an interesting question.

[seaforths]

An update on the book I mentioned previously which I'm glad is still there as it allows me to correct my error, it is in fact: Cautions and Advices to Officers of the Army, particularly Subalterns.: To which are added, A Letter, &c. on Duelling. By An Old Officer. Perth: Printed by R. Morison Junior, for R. Morison & Son...and Vernor & Hood...London, 1795, 3rd ed. corrected.

[seaforth78]

I must admit I did not necessarily make the link between LMF and not being readily identifiable. Maybe just too used to officers removing rank as part of the nature of counter-insurgency warfare (Vietnam and Afghanistan; we never used sir = skipper, boss, etc.

Interesting also the degree to which German officers abandoned swords once trench warfare was entered into. Photographs seem to show that many seem to have opted initially for the M1898, a/A (alter Art = older model), M1898, and later for the standard M1898/05 'butcher blade' , both with officer portepee. I haven't been able to find frontline photographs of German officers after Christmas, 1914. Common sense on both sides?

We do seem to have strayed off the topic. For my part - I apologise but perhaps this helps us back on the path.

You must remember that Australia in those days were very pro-empire and everyone who mattered in society endeavoured to emulate upper English London society. Much of this manly, matey Digger ethos is quite recent and much influenced by Bean after 1918. Gallipoli the movie with a very young Mel Gibson (born in my home state of NY by the way) brought this out very well by of the incident between the Colonel and his 2/ic when debating of whether to the have final assault of not. You see the upper class tone of the Colonel, who while Australian did not speak in a lower class accent like a OR would have. Australians today completely forget that period. Peter Weir himself in an interview on a look back on the 1981 movie remarked on pre-war middle-upper class society. Not the farming or city dweller Aussie, but the small educated ones that chiefly officered the militia and later the AIF.

[seaforth78]

Here's one to the Black Watch:

http://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/archive/nigel-john-lawson-boyd/

[seaforths]

Here's one to the Black Watch:

http://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/archive/nigel-john-lawson-boyd/

Thanks for the link. Interestiing on two points, the sword and that his body was repatriated which is a bit outwith this topic but I've not seen too many of those. He's only the 3rd I've seen, all officers. He was very lucky or perhaps the Germans hadn't much time to spare. I've just been reading of a man who was bayonetted 8 times and kicked in the face while he feigned death (he alleged the Germans were finishing off those who were wounded). It must have been damned difficult not to react. I think if I'd been stuck once, I'd be screaming.

Were the sword scabbards made of standard materials? Or were they unique? I'm curious as to what they were made of but obviously something that wasn't going to absorb the impact of a bullet for it to deflect.

[gordon92]

Thanks for the link. Interestiing on two points, the sword and that his body was repatriated which is a bit outwith this topic but I've not seen too many of those. He's only the 3rd I've seen, all officers. He was very lucky or perhaps the Germans hadn't much time to spare. I've just been reading of a man who was bayonetted 8 times and kicked in the face while he feigned death (he alleged the Germans were finishing off those who were wounded). It must have been damned difficult not to react. I think if I'd been stuck once, I'd be screaming.

Were the sword scabbards made of standard materials? Or were they unique? I'm curious as to what they were made of but obviously something that wasn't going to absorb the impact of a bullet for it to deflect.

Something just does not make sense about the story of a bullet glancing off the sword scabbard. The field service scabbard was made of wood covered by leather, hardly sturdy enough materials to deflect a bullet. Exaggeration?

[seaforths]

Something just does not make sense about the story of a bullet glancing off the sword scabbard. The field service scabbard was made of wood covered by leather, hardly sturdy enough materials to deflect a bullet. Exaggeration?

Unless of course, the the force of the bullet was much reduced over the distance of its trajectory and it glanced off the scabbard. I suspect flesh would be easier to penetrate. It might also be a poor choice of vocabulary. In that it clipped the scabbard which altered its path a little, before it entered his body rather than deflecting off the scabbard.

If they were allowed to have their own swords and scabbards, he might have had something of a more robust material.

[gordon92]

Unless of course, the the force of the bullet was much reduced over the distance of its trajectory and it glanced off the scabbard. I suspect flesh would be easier to penetrate. It might also be a poor choice of vocabulary. In that it clipped the scabbard which altered its path a little, before it entered his body rather than deflecting off the scabbard.

If they were allowed to have their own swords and scabbards, he might have had something of a more robust material.

All you say does make sense. Regarding poor choice of vocabulary, the bullet may have simply hit the scabbard first before entering the body.

[seaforth78]

Were the sword scabbards made of standard materials? Or were they unique? I'm curious as to what they were made of but obviously something that wasn't going to absorb the impact of a bullet for it to deflect.

The officer on active service carried a Sam Browne scabbard which as Gordon 92 pointed out was a wooden base covered in leather. But as the bullet glanced off the scabbard it was most likely a spent bullet. Lucky though.....

[seaforths]

The officer on active service carried a Sam Browne scabbard which as 92 Gordon pointed out was a wooden base covered in leather. But as the bullet glanced off the scabbard it was most likely a spent bullet. Lucky though.....

Lucky to have survived the wounding and the operation but very unlucky to have died almost a month later. I can only assume the blood clot that killed him was a result of the wound/operation.

[lancashire]

Thanks,

Kut 1916 Captivity and the 6th Indian division by major EWC Sandes:

The book is available on archive.com and I'm around page 250 (e-book version) although they had to finally hand over their swords a few days after the surrender, some Kut pictures (Kut 1916 P Crowley) show artists drawings with officers with revolvers and drawn swords as does a picture too. Now in one case the sword is left hand the other right hand!

Given most people have a natural hand I wonder which the revolver / sword I would assume effective use of a sword requires training and practice, mid you a WWI revolver in the "weaker" hand may have been equally dangerous too.

I did try fencing at school - training and practice is required!

Regarding walking sticks Major Sandes and his fellow officers had these as well as they used them to make shelters from the sun on their march in captivity.

Most of these officers were mobilized from India if that makes a difference to their Kit wkich was in excess of 60kg as on several occasions they had to shed some and they still had orderlies in their column.

Edited 22 July , 2015 by lancashire

[mark1965]

Hi - was wondering if anyone could help.

Attached is a photo of my gt uncle killed in 1916 at Leuze Wood with the Kensingtons.

The sword he is wearing was given to my grandfather when his effects were returned. The sword was stolen in a burglary in the 1960s.

I would like to replace this sword so could someone identify the type of sword this is - I am assuming it is 1897 model but know nothing else - any advice greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks, Mark

Edited 28 August , 2015 by mark1965

[seaforths]

Hi - was wondering if anyone could help.

Attached is a photo of my gt uncle killed in 1916 at Leuze Wood with the Kensingtons.

The sword he is wearing was given to my grandfather when his effects were returned. The sword was stolen in a burglary in the 1960s.

I would like to replace this sword so could someone identify the type of sword this is - I am assuming it is 1897 model but know nothing else - any advice greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks, Mark

Sorry Mark, your attached hasn't, well, attached itself. So we can't see the photo

[mark1965]

Hi - sorry was trying to move to another topic please find attached.

[seaforths]

Hahahaha tricky!

Found your other thread and left a message there.

[seaforth78]

Hi - was wondering if anyone could help.

Attached is a photo of my gt uncle killed in 1916 at Leuze Wood with the Kensingtons.

The sword he is wearing was given to my grandfather when his effects were returned. The sword was stolen in a burglary in the 1960s.

I would like to replace this sword so could someone identify the type of sword this is - I am assuming it is 1897 model but know nothing else - any advice greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks, Mark

Hi Mark,

That's an indeed a 1897 Pattern Officer's sword made during the era of GV. A great pity that it was stolen, however you may be in luck on possible recovery if it was a sword made by Wilkinson or if by another maker like Pillin or Mole, if it had your great uncle's initials or family crest. If so it will turn up and most likely be in someone's collection (not mine!) This pattern is quite common and you could see and consult with these English dealers who frequently sell this type.

http://www.antique-swords.eu/british-infantry.html

https://www.michaeldlong.com/Catalogue/Swords/20th-Century/British.aspx

Good luck!

[Will M]

Needle in a hay stack as they say. War time production of Wilkinson sword rarely they entered the buyers particulars as they had previously. If he joined before 1914 and if the sword is a Wilkinson you might have a chance. Arms research.co.uk has the Wilkinson proof pages.

If another maker and if he had his initials and family crest etched on the blade it would be a shot in the dark to find it. The 1897p swords are by far the most common and proliferous.

[mark1965]

Thanks - I'll keep an eye out for a replacement

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks - I'll keep an eye out for a replacement

If you carry out an online search for "Vintage 1897 Pattern Infantry Sword" you are likely to find some for sale very quickly.