trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Thanks for that input Seaforth78! Will PM you on an allied matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Thanks! BTW, Major Yate had his sword in the trenches when he was overwhelmed. Of course by the time the infamous photo of him was taken it was pinched! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Seaforth78 - that's funny - I can't find the 'Send me a message' button on your profile page... I was just wondering what you were planning do with your collection if you do move overseas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 "British soldiers at Passchendaele, 1917" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Thanks! BTW, Major Yate had his sword in the trenches when he was overwhelmed. Of course by the time the infamous photo of him was taken it was pinched! That was at the back of my mind - the description of him waving his sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 I would expect the order to do away with swords was made during the retreat from Mons. Infantry Officers certainly had them at Le Cateau but mention of them drops off very rapidly after September. The retreat ended on 6th Sep 1914 by which time the Army would have realised it was an impediment rather than an asset. If there is no traceable order I suspect dated photos will provide the best clues. Edit: KOSB was still wearing theirs in mid 1915 so my theory is wrong.: 15th Oct 1914. 2:30 am. Moved to BEUVRY. Said to be in Division Reserve. 2 Lt SANDISON joined, drew his sword, cut his hand and retired to hospital. 2nd Lt DEANS joined. They brought a draft. The Battalion had never been so absolutely done up as it was this morning. Brig Gen HICKEY goes sick, Col MARTYN 1st Bn QUEEN'S OWN ROYAL WEST KENT REGT, commands 13th INF BDE temporarily. Hi Martin What is your source for KOSB wearing their swords in mid 1915? Thanks, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Seaforth78 - that's funny - I can't find the 'Send me a message' button on your profile page... I was just wondering what you were planning do with your collection if you do move overseas... Thanks for confirming! Will message Keith about this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Hi Martin What is your source for KOSB wearing their swords in mid 1915? Thanks, Kevin Sorry - its a typo. It should read late 1914 not mid 1915. No idea what I was thinking. The War diary 15th Oct 1914. Sandison draws his sword and cuts his hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Captain RMJ French 3RWF was fatally wounded September 1915, and died in UK after months of suffering. There is correspondence on file regarding his father's attempts [unsuccessful] to trace and recover his sword. The inference is that it was "with him" when he was wounded, in that he did not send previously send it Home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 The last battalion that had their officers leading en masse with their swords was 2nd Scottish Rifles at Neuve Chapelle on 10th March 1915. But according to their historian, Lt Colonel Sir John Baynes Bt. himself an officer of the Regiment told me that it not was an order from Colonel Bliss but left it to each Coy commander to decide. My doctoral study, Captain MD Kennedy of B Coy was ordered by his commander to carry his sword. So, reading the various battalion diaries over the years, it was really up to each battalion but the practise really died out by December 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glengarry1950 Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 2nd BN KOSB officers carried their swords at Le Gateau as can be seen from their encounter with German Uhlans in the woods during the battle, there is mention in the history that officers carried swords and wore Glengarries. Quoted during the retreat at Le Gateau, " Scottish troops tended to herd under officers with glengarries", to date I cant find an order stating swords were not to be worn. Then again there may not be one, common cense could have prevailed. Regards Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Regarding the actual use of swords, to go somewhat off-topic, the LLT at http://www.1914-1918.net/bat1.htm notes that on 22nd August 1914, a Captain Hornby of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, "returned with his sword presented, revealing German blood." But I guess a cavalry officer, like a cavalryman, would naturally use the weapon in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Found a reference in my notes to the German order to discard swords. "On the 19th July 1915 the Prussian War Ministry ordered all regimental officers to replace their swords with S98/05 with the exception of airmen and airship personnel who were allowed to wear the kS98. The Bavarians issued a similar order four weeks later on 20th August, but in spite of regulations many officers preferred and carried the kS98. The majority were purchased privately, and there are many minor variations of the official service pattern". It's from Carter, I am certain, but not sure which volume... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 Regarding the actual use of swords, to go somewhat off-topic, the LLT at http://www.1914-1918.net/bat1.htm notes that on 22nd August 1914, a Captain Hornby of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, "returned with his sword presented, revealing German blood." But I guess a cavalry officer, like a cavalryman, would naturally use the weapon in combat. Or the adjutant of the 12th Lancers at Moy when 'Charles Bryant had retained the old cutting sword, and well sharpened, it accounted for at least 5 of the enemy, going in and out like a pat of butter.' His CO, Wormald was not so fortunate. "....using one of the new pattern Wilkinson thrusting swords was dismayed to see it buckle like an S as it skewered an unfortunate German." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 If we are including cavalry, then sabres were carried and used right to the end of the war. Flowerdew's squadron of the Strathconas killed dozens of Germans with the sabre at Moreuil Wood in late March 1918. I assume that the Munnings painting of the charge is accurate in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 2nd BN KOSB officers carried their swords at Le Gateau as can be seen from their encounter with German Uhlans in the woods during the battle, there is mention in the history that officers carried swords and wore Glengarries. Quoted during the retreat at Le Gateau, " Scottish troops tended to herd under officers with glengarries", to date I cant find an order stating swords were not to be worn. Then again there may not be one, common cense could have prevailed. Regards Hiram A piece of cake apparently.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 A nod then of course, at the chateau a sword would have been most useful for cutting a French cake ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 A nod then of course, at the chateau a sword would have been most useful for cutting a French cake ... And for de-necking champagne bottles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 3 November , 2014 Share Posted 3 November , 2014 If we are including cavalry, then sabres were carried and used right to the end of the war. Flowerdew's squadron of the Strathconas killed dozens of Germans with the sabre at Moreuil Wood in late March 1918. I assume that the Munnings painting of the charge is accurate in this respect. Flowerdew's VC citation tells us that: "...The squadron (less one troop) passed over both lines, killing many of the enemy with the sword..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 November , 2014 Share Posted 25 November , 2014 Lt Hyndson, 1st B Loyal North Lancashire Regiment - Personal Diary. 13th August 1914. "[my equipment] consisted of my greatcoat strapped on my back (after this officers' greatcoats were always carried in the Maltese cart), revolver and twelve rounds of ammunition, field glasses, wire cutters, iron ration (one tin of bully beef, half-lb of biscuits, tea and sugar) full water bottle, compass, haversack with sundry articles inside and lastly my sword. We always wore and continued to wear a sword until after 14th September, the second day of the Aisne battle." 14th September 1914: "The signal to advance is given and Loomes is the first to take his platoon over the bank and into the inferno. For a minute or two I have a clear picture of him with his sword drawn, leading his men forward and waving them on with words of encouragement, to which they respond without the slightest hesitation. This is the last glimpse I have of him. My turn comes next and I draw my sword and call on my men to follow me. We leap on the banks and begin to rush forward and are immediately exposed to a devastating fire...." ".... at the same time I acquire myself a rifle in exchange for my sword, which I discard in order to camouflage myself as much as possible. We have learnt by this time how adept the Germans are at picking out the officers..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambraiComrade Posted 26 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2014 This is very helpful, thank you old boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 On a slightly peripheral note, there is a small number of letters to The Times complaining that when a deceased officer's effects were returned to his family, the sword was not included. I remember reading one letter from a widow who had been sent a sword, but found it to be not her husband's sword, which was clearly identifiable, but a much plainer, less valuable one. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 November , 2014 Share Posted 26 November , 2014 It is worth noting that this was an individual decision rather than a general order to discard swords. I suspect that many other officers took the same independent decision around the same time as Hyndson, but it is worth remembering that the Scottish officer who sliced his hand did this a month later than Hyndson discarded his sword. This may be due to the fact that the Scottish Officer had just arrived and was not aware that swords had been discarded. Either way I would imagine the sword was seen as an impediment rather than an asset in Sep-Oct 1914. I have not seen any referenec to a general order instruction Officers to abandon their swords in 1914, although I suspect there is a good chance this happened at formation level. I have seen an order for troops about to embark for Gallipoli in early August 1915 that swords were not to be taken. The order was directed at the Yeomanry's 2nd Mounted Division who had swords as part of their normal weaponry. Since they were going dismounted in an infantry role it is not quite the same thing as swords were attached to the saddlery. My reading of this is that Officers who might have considered wearing their swords on their Sam Brownes were ordered not to take their swords. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambraiComrade Posted 26 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2014 Many thanks chaps, I am a re-enactor you see and this should (until I'm a bit older) save me around £400!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 I have seen an order for troops about to embark for Gallipoli in early August 1915 that swords were not to be taken. The order was directed at the Yeomanry's 2nd Mounted Division who had swords as part of their normal weaponry. Since they were going dismounted in an infantry role it is not quite the same thing as swords were attached to the saddlery. My reading of this is that Officers who might have considered wearing their swords on their Sam Brownes were ordered not to take their swords. MG Hello Martin, I was under the impression that the Turks had continually used their swords at Gallipoli, due to culture and partly due to ammo supply shortages. Is this correct ? A number of Ottoman swords, at the time, had their blades 'cut down' to make them more suitable for trench fighting. Perhaps, the sword use by the Ottomans was a last resort towards the end of the conflict and was not considered a "threat" by the British in 1915 ? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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