Pte Edward Attfield, 5th Btn AIF - missing in Cairo - was he murdered?

[melliget]

No worries, Andrew. I would have trouble locating emails that far back (before I was using Gmail). Hopefully, when the OAWG gets back to me with CWGC's response, it will contain similar information.

Thanks.

Martin

[melliget]

Just a quick update. Went to the PROV last week and obtained copies of selected documents from Edward Attfield's probate papers (thanks for your reduced copies, Susan, but needed some slightly easier to read for those looking into the case). Have been contacted by both the "Unrecovered War Casualties - Army" unit (Dept. of Defence) and the OAWG. They are going to look into the case.

Martin

[Blackblue]

Nice work Martin,

TD

[Guest bevket]

My name is Beverly Kettle-warren granddaughter of Ned Attfield

I know how much my nanna was devestatd by all this

His ather died of a broken heart in 1919 and his other was stripped of her pension from him in 1915

she lived with a heartache for so long she gave 3 sons his 2 half brothers and him to the war the 2 half brothers came back but he didnt I half brother became the typical aussie swaggie after srving 2 years in he stockade in turkey and his mother was devestated so she lost 2 sons my nanna never recovered from her brothers death she became cynical of everyone from then on and i showed in her later life she became remote from her immediate family and I only realised that people I knew as friends were he relatives when I started to trace the family tree

I have copies of letters supplied to me by a cuz from ned asking about my aunt lily how is little lily is dad teaching her to sing

He didnt know that in 1915 he had a nephew too he was call edwin charles alexander kettle the name of my grandfather nanna 's husband married in 1913

was always called little Ned

private ned's grandfather and grandmother were convicys in tasmania and his grandfather pioneered armidale and toorak with brickworks

regards

Bev proud ancestor of ned

My name is Beverly Kettle-warren grandneice of Ned Attfield

I know how much my nanna was devestatd by all this

His ather died of a broken heart in 1919 and his other was stripped of her pension from him in 1915

she lived with a heartache for so long she gave 3 sons his 2 half brothers and him to the war the 2 half brothers came back but he didnt I half brother became the typical aussie swaggie after srving 2 years in he stockade in turkey and his mother was devestated so she lost 2 sons my nanna never recovered from her brothers death she became cynical of everyone from then on and i showed in her later life she became remote from her immediate family and I only realised that people I knew as friends were he relatives when I started to trace the family tree

I have copies of letters supplied to me by a cuz from ned asking about my aunt lily how is little lily is dad teaching her to sing

He didnt know that in 1915 he had a nephew too he was call edwin charles alexander kettle the name of my grandfather nanna 's husband married in 1913

was always called little Ned

private ned's grandfather and grandmother were convicys in tasmania and his grandfather pioneered armidale and toorak with brickworks

regards

Bev proud ancestor of ned

My name is Beverly Kettle-warren grandneice of Ned Attfield

I know how much my nanna was devestatd by all this

His ather died of a broken heart in 1919 and his other was stripped of her pension from him in 1915

she lived with a heartache for so long she gave 3 sons his 2 half brothers and him to the war the 2 half brothers came back but he didnt I half brother became the typical aussie swaggie after srving 2 years in he stockade in turkey and his mother was devestated so she lost 2 sons my nanna never recovered from her brothers death she became cynical of everyone from then on and i showed in her later life she became remote from her immediate family and I only realised that people I knew as friends were he relatives when I started to trace the family tree

I have copies of letters supplied to me by a cuz from ned asking about my aunt lily how is little lily is dad teaching her to sing

He didnt know that in 1915 he had a nephew too he was call edwin charles alexander kettle the name of my grandfather nanna 's husband married in 1913

was always called little Ned

private ned's grandfather and grandmother were convicys in tasmania and his grandfather pioneered armidale and toorak with brickworks

regards

Bev proud ancestor of ned

[Guest bevket]

hi all

Beverly again the family of ned regard him as great australian tho the army says otherwide

he wa only 5ft 31/2 to 4 and had tried at lest 7 times to get into the fight for king and country(although the poms thought of us as cannon fodder) we were just children of convicts or colonials

Here in this day and age to have convicts in your heritage is badge of honour

he had 2 convicts his grandfather samuel orton and his grandmother elizabeth coventry hid moher was born in tasmania I have elizabeths record not nice

it seems to me that australia failed this man and he needs to be rememberd he was wounded twice

if he was a yank he would be hero

I am proud aussie and proud of him and of my heritage which on my mothers side is native aboriginal but I am also proud of my english & scoittish heritage without which I would not exist

bring him home and restore his name

[melliget]

Hi Bev.

Very nice to hear from another relative of Edward (Ned) Attfield. It's good to know that there are still family members out there who hold onto his memory and remember what he did for his country.

I received an email from the Office of Australian War Graves (OAWG) six days ago. He is being considered for acceptance as Australian war dead. If the Director OAWG concurs, a case will then be submitted to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) for acceptance.

While I thought you should know what's going on, it's best not to get your hopes up - it's still being decided upon and there's always a chance the case is not accepted.

As I see it, there are two parts to this case: firstly, that he didn't return from the war and must be assumed to be missing presumed dead whilst serving and therefore eligible for commemoration; and also whether he was the soldier murdered in Egypt around the same time as his disappearance (there seems to be strong possibility he was). Let's see if we can address the first issue in the first instance. The "Unrecovered War Casualties - Army" unit are also looking into the case, so perhaps they'll come up with something to help with the latter.

Convict ancestors, hey? As Jack Thompson said, Australian Royalty!

Will post an update here if I hear anything.

regards,

Martin

[melliget]

Bev.

I don't suppose you have a photo of Ned, do you?

regards,

Martin

[johnboy]

Did Australian enlistment forms give a physical description of the man? You would have to assume that somewhere there was a description of the body. The family were also asked about tattoos?

On British enlistment docs tattoos and scars are listed.

[melliget]

Yes, A.I.F. forms did include a description on enlistment, Private Attfield's description was given as:

Age: 24 years 8 months

Height: 5 feet 3 ½ inches

Weight: 10 st 3 lbs

Chest: 36 ½ / 38 ½ inches

Complexion: Dark

Eyes: Brown

Hair: Brown

Religion Denomination: C of E

Distinctive Marks:

Vacc. on Right

Scar Operation for R. Groin

Tatt on Right forearm

Tatt on Left forearm

It would be good to locate the Court of Inquiry documents because they just may include details that could provide a link.

In a letter dated 31 Dec 1923 from the Dept. of Defence to Edward Attfield's mother, T. Trumble, Secretary, said "all efforts to connect your son with the Australian soldier whose dead body was found at Ghiza on 28th January, 1916, have failed."

One of the "efforts" the Secretary was referring to was showing photographs of Edward Attfield (supplied by his mother 16 Oct 1923) to an ex-member of the A.I.F. who gave evidence at the Court of Inquiry held immediately after the death of the unidentified soldier in Egypt and who saw the body. He was unable to identify the man in the photograph but that hardly seems surprising, seeing as it was 7 (almost 8) years later!

The Secretary concluded by saying: "Under the circumstances it is regretted that no further action can be taken by the Department in this matter."

This is jumping way ahead but I wonder whether, if the grave of the unidentified soldier in Old Cairo Cemetery could be located and if a DNA sample could be obtained (two big ifs, I know), would it be possible to test for a match with living, distant relatives?

regards,

Martin

[johnboy]

I would think that if the scar and tattoos could be linked via the paperwork of the time that should be enough to open a case.

[melliget]

Thanks johnboy. The case is already being considered by the Office of Australian War Graves (Dept of Defence). There is little doubt he went missing in Jan 1916, was never seen again and was presumed to be dead (as he was legally, later, for the purposes of Probate). But the details in the Court of Inquiry could help to provide the link, or otherwise, between Private Attfield and the unidentified Australian soldier murdered in Egypt.

[johnboy]

Personally, I would not like to see a body exhumed unless there is a 90% chance of it being the one. Hopefully some paperwork from the original finding and burial of the body will be found.

Good luck.

[Loader]

Isn't it the stated policy of the CWGC to NOT exhume "unknown" graves for purposes of DNA testing? I think applies to CWGC burials only & not newly discovered remains on the battlefields, they'll do it with them. Looks as if case has to be made with paperwork details. Hope this can be solved & closure & honor restored to his name.

[Loader]

I realize there was a war on & all that comes with it, troop movements, timetables, etc.. But seems to me this was a failure of command at the Co & Platoon level. A man was missing & as mentioned his pals not even taken to see the body. Maybe one, when every man of his squad, his Sgt. His Platoon Ldr,should've been assembled & taken to see the body & all have a chance to say it was or was not him. His Plt Ldr should've raised hell about one of his men missing until he had seen the body & satisfied himself it was not his soldier. Sadly I'd not be surprised if more fuss were raised over a missing water cart since whoever signed for it would have to pay for it! For one who went to great lengths to join up he was poorly served by the army. I know it was a different time, different war, different service but my Lt. & Sgt. & Coy. CO would never let it rest before assuring themselves that the body was not him. His tatoos would help a lot as would size. Just seems a family has suffered for 100 yrs & man's name darkened by failure to press the issue fuller with those who knew him best. Please keep updates coming. My humble opinion only about this case but doubt I'm alone in it. Thanks.

[melliget]

Thought I'd just bump this one up. Have just noticed something. On 18 Dec 1916, the Secretary of the British Red Cross Society (Australian Branch) wrote to the 5th Batt., AIF, asking if Pte Attfield was with his unit.

 

"His friends in Melbourne have cabled to us stating that he was alleged to be killed and asking us to make enquiries".

 

Interesting that, less than 12 months after he went missing, his friends thought he had been killed. I wonder if they'd heard something from someone or that was just an assumption, as no-one had heard from him? On 29th Dec 1916, Lieut. Col. John Walstab, O.C. 5th Bn., replied to the Red Cross saying that:

 

"..this soldier was evacuated wounded from Gallipoli on 30/7/15 and has not since re-joined this unit".

 

Attfield was admitted to hospital on this date (Gastro Enteritis) but his last confirmed movement was actually "6.1.16 Marched into O/Seas Base Ghezireh ex Gallipoli". The last letter his mother received was from Cairo dated 27/1/16. On 25 Jan 1919, when her husband Charles died, she continued to hope that her son was still alive. Despite being 3 years since he had gone missing, the death notice in The Argus said "dearly loved father of... Edward (on active service)".

 

This case was forwarded to OAWG in 2015 and is also with the Army's Unrecovered War Casualties team.

[melliget]

Good news. Pte Edward Attfield has been commemorated.

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/75459841/attfield,-edward/

 

A note with his entry says:

 

"Recent research has shown that Private Attfield is buried here. Currently the grave [in Cairo War Memorial Cemetery] is marked with a headstone to an Unknown, but a new headstone bearing his details is now on order."

 

As well as the new headstone, I sincerely hope the Department for Defence sets things right by issuing his three medals to his living relatives.

 

Martin

Edited 14 December , 2017 by melliget

[sadbrewer]

I remember reading this sad case some time ago.

   In the words of The Winslow Boy' solicitor..."let right be done"

Well done to all those who have assisted in restoring this brave young man's good name and reputation.

[IPT]

I missed this thread somehow. Fascinating.

 

Well done, Martin.  Was there any definite proof in the end, or did they simply accept the extreme probability that it's him?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Indeed, a fascinating story.

A bit late now, but is there any record at all of what was on the CWGC site relating to the grave of the Unknown Australian Soldier at Cairo- entry in the Register, grave concentration etc.

Any background at all as to how/why an Australian soldier  came to be buried there-  such as 'Died of Wounds', 'Killed in Action' or 'Body found in an alleyway'  ?

[John_Hartley]

35 minutes ago, IPT said:

Was there any definite proof in the end, or did they simply accept the extreme probability that it's him

Fascinating story which I missed first time around.

 

I assume one of the first tasks the authorities would have examined was the existing CWGC database to see if there could have been another candidate for the murder victim. That would have to be an Australian who died on the right day (s) in the right place and who is recorded as being commemorated as "missing". Bearing in mind that "unknowns" away from the combat area are as rare as hens' teeth, it would probably have been found that there was no other candidate. So, whilst not 100% evidence the murder victim was him, the "extreme probability" decision may well have been easy.

[melliget]

I'm not sure if any additional info was discovered since I contacted the Unrecovered War Casualties unit (Army) in 2014. I would like to know that too - I'll try to find out. I'm also not sure what info the CWGC had on the grave. I don't know where to find the grave registration documents on the CWGC site since the update. It was "Andrew P" on this forum who provided the grave reference, which CWGC would have no doubt verified through the cemetery records.

 

All's well that ends well.

 

[Bardess]

Hi Martin. If you take a look at John Berry's CWGC entry he is buried in D.287 but, I'm afraid, nothing is noted

[PeteS]

What a superb effort by those who drove this through, a wonderful tribute to a brave lad.

[elizgh99]

Hi,      I cannot seem to find War Diaries for the various AIF  battalions .....Ancestry has digitised most of the British Army ones and I just can`t find the AIF ..  Often in the British War Diaries , there are addendum, notes, various other papers attached to a certain action or incident .   Does anyone know if the AIF are digitised either at AWM or by Ancestry ?

Thanks ,  looking for 48th Battalion , and James Herman Breuer . kia Oct 1917.

[IPT]

17 minutes ago, elizgh99 said:

Hi,      I cannot seem to find War Diaries for the various AIF  battalions .....Ancestry has digitised most of the British Army ones and I just can`t find the AIF ..  Often in the British War Diaries , there are addendum, notes, various other papers attached to a certain action or incident .   Does anyone know if the AIF are digitised either at AWM or by Ancestry ?

Thanks ,  looking for 48th Battalion , and James Herman Breuer . kia Oct 1917.

 

Here you are - https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1344837?image=1