jscott Posted 15 October , 2014 Share Posted 15 October , 2014 Hi all I thought I would post some pictures of a German M16 helmet which I recently acquired and which has slightly unusual camouflage (only two distinct colours and thinner lines than normal) and what appears to be bullet/ shrapnel damage. No liner, and from the condition of the helmet I suspect it may have spent some time discarded on the battlefield before being picked up. Cheers, Jonathan ps. they aren't the easiest things to photograph - the colour never seems to be captured quite correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 October , 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 15 October , 2014 Share Posted 15 October , 2014 Nice example of original paint. It's not too unusual to have only two colours despite regulations. I have a couple of examples in my collection. Guess if they only had two colours available? There are so many variations. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 October , 2014 Share Posted 15 October , 2014 I only know these from photographs, but the fading of the paint seems ok to me. The 'shrapnel' holes seem to have splintered off some of the paint and dragged other surface paint in with them, suggesting that the paint is original. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 15 October , 2014 Share Posted 15 October , 2014 Nice item. I'm a collector of such stuff myself and am yet to find one in my price range. But am I alone in being a bit concerned about the bullet holes? They could be as a result of a bit of target practice when it was lying in the mud. However the alternative is a bit ghoulish perhaps. Not in any way denigrating your purchase or field of collecting jscott, just posing the question. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 15 October , 2014 Share Posted 15 October , 2014 The paint is 100% right. There are many wrong uns about but this piece is good. Re the battle damage, it's a reminder of the reality of war. I have a couple of damaged helmets that had they been worn the wounds would have been fatal. Tat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 16 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2014 TT - thanks very much for your comments. I don't normally collect helmets (I have a few examples each of German, French and British/US) and I actually spent quite some time researching the camouflage M16s before buying this one. The most helpful thread I found was one that you contributed to very heavily (although for some reason I can't find it again now). I've seen a few of the helmets from your collection that you have posted on the forum and they are fantastic examples. As you say there are a lot of examples out there which just look wrong, and are clearly not 100 years old. Trajan - agree, I'm quite the layman too - but agree that the paint looks "right" compared to much of what I saw when I was looking at the various helmets for sale. This is especially so where it has worn at the top, around the damaged areas and also in the missing paint where the original liner pin would have rubbed the paint away. I spent quite a lot of time reviewing photos of helmets from legit dealers (most of which were WAY out of my price range) before buying. Dave - I thought the same thing, and gave this some consideration before buying. I think that its probably unlikely that the bullet/ shrapnel damage happened whilst being worn by its owner (as presumably this would have made the helmet far less desirable as a take home), and I agree with TT that this is essentially a reminder of the brutality of war. I mainly collect bayonets and I guess the same could be said of any of these as well. Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 Jonathan Type in helmet conundrum in search and you will find the thread. It was good but got fiesty like so many threads seem to. Many images gone now but quite a few remain. I have since aquired more but they are now overpriced massively and seem to stay with the dealer. Surely would be better to price realistically and see it sell? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 October , 2014 Share Posted 16 October , 2014 ... I have since aquired more but they are now overpriced massively and seem to stay with the dealer. Surely would be better to price realistically and see it sell? Too true! Three years back a dealer turned up at the Ankara Antika pazari with a stack of GW stahlhelm, some camouflaged all, with starting prices in the high range. Wasn't prepared to bargain, and left, and I have never seen him since. But, never forget that dealers will often get a piece of whatever, find they can'f sell it at a high price, and then justify it by saying 'Stock in hand, takes years to move, takes up space in betweentimes, and so the high price"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Hi all Wondering what people's take is on this helmet (in particular re originality of paint)? I'm still very much a beginner in deciphering this, and the amount of wear seems to be a positive, but the colours don't seem to be regulation. Having said that I see more non-regulation camouflage helmets than I do regulation ones! Any thoughts welcome. Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Jonathan, more difficult than the first but by gut is that it is good. Would like to see and touch though before final judgement. Re colours they are fine and as you say many variations. The order to cammo came in July 1918 however I saw one with a post home label pre dating so before the official instructions were issued they were painting them adhoc. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thanks a lot TT. Out of interest what would you look for to determine authenticity if you saw the helmet in the flesh? Just trying to educate myself on these things. Is it really just a sense of age, consistent interior and smaller detail like rubbing marks where the liner pins would have been? Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 June , 2015 Share Posted 22 June , 2015 Hi all I thought I would post some pictures of a German M16 helmet which I recently acquired and which has slightly unusual camouflage (only two distinct colours and thinner lines than normal) Check: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/16910156582/in/pool-old_pictures/for what seems to be another using thin lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 24 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2015 Interesting photo Trajan - and his helmet does appear to have the thinner lines. The 1920 date seems a little odd though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 24 June , 2015 Share Posted 24 June , 2015 I have seen good helmets with thick. Thin and no lines. All right. Most copies I have seen follow the directive to the book. You have to look at the paint, it's wear etc. If you are buying handle as many as possible, research your subject and buy from trusted sources. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 24 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 June , 2015 Thanks TT, that makes a lot of sense. I'm really a bayonet collector, but do find first world war helmets intriguing. I don't tend to see many in the flesh as I generally buy online, but am happy with the few French, German and British helmets Ive picked up over the years. There seem to be a lot more M16 camouflage helmets in the US, which I guess makes sense given the influx of US soldiers in 1918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 June , 2015 Share Posted 24 June , 2015 ...The 1920 date seems a little odd though? Yes, I wondered about that... I did wonder if he was freikorps but why would he be wearing a Machinengewehr Scharfschützen badge and holding a gasmask if that was the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Wagner Posted 22 October , 2016 Share Posted 22 October , 2016 (edited) I think yours is authentic. Here is one of my favourites, also a 2 colour Camo, in Fall colours. Graham Edited 12 November , 2016 by Graham Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 22 October , 2016 Share Posted 22 October , 2016 Hello, Jonathan - From the photographs it appears to me that your first helmet has three colors of camouflage - green, ochre (mustard yellow), and brick-red. All three colors can be seen most clearly in the photograph showing the right-hand side of the helmet. I see nothing about it that makes me question the authenticity of the camouflage paint. In regard to your second helmet, I would be careful. The colors (particularly the large black sections) and the rust bubbles under the paint do not look right to me. I currently have 32 camouflage helmets in my collection and have handled many others during the last 45 years, and I think that I have a reasonably good "feel" for camouflage helmets. As you mentioned, German camouflaged helmets were popular doughboy souvenirs and more seem to be in the U.S. than elsewhere, so we have quite a few to study. However, perhaps I'm wrong about your helmets... Regards, Torrey PS: I read somewhere that camouflage helmets were so popular with American soldiers that Walt Disney, who served in France, made extra money painting camouflage colors on captured German helmets that had not been camouflaged by the Germans. [Too bad he didn't sign them!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Wagner Posted 23 October , 2016 Share Posted 23 October , 2016 (edited) I agree wholeheartedly with Old Sweats, the second helmet is highly suspect on account of the colors and the manner in which the paint is peeling. That doesn't happen to a true camo. If the colors look right then I look for spider cracks in the paint finish as indicators of extreme age. I also look for wear to the crown as when the helmet was removed and put down invariably it ended up on its crown, so there shd be crown wear. The other places for wear are the top side of the bill (for adjusting the tilt of the helmet) and both sides of the helmet by the chinstrap lugs which were held during a bombardment. Also, if rust is coming thru the camo paint that is very suspect. These helmets were given and incredibly durable enamel paint job in factory which was made to last. So, rust coming thru camo paint means the factory paint has been compromised, often by sandblasting before the fake camo paint goes on. Lastly, keep an eye on eBay where most of the camo helmets are junk nowadays, but you can learn from what's being peddled. For instance, if the helmet has a great camo job but is rusted throughout the inside, how can this be? Fake! Or if the camo job has been painted over a rusted and pitted shell, same thing. Quite frankly, I am routinely stunned by the prices people will pay for what is clearly a fake camo job. And yes, I too have been fooled, but not very often. Graham PS Here is my favorite find. I found it in a Winnipeg junk shop in the 1980's. It was on a very out of the way top shell with a $22.00 price tag affixed to it. "Who the hell painted this helmet white?", I asked myself, but for $22.00 I was willing to take it home. Then I saw the spider cracks in the white paint and a tortoise shell camo job underneath the white. Finally, when I took the Reich cockade off the helmet lug the paint underneath was a creamy yellowish white, not the stark white on the rest of the helmet, so the creamy paint had been protected from sunlight for a long, long time. My conclusion is that it is a winter camo converted to Freikorps use by the addition of the cockade post-war. Edited 12 November , 2016 by Graham Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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