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Dannemois

Cross of Karageorge

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Dannemois

From the service records of Private 13138 William Sullivan S.W.Bords. Attested 26 Aug 1914 (previous service 3rd Welsh Regt (S.R.) time expired. Promoted Corporal 3rd Sept 1915, promoted Sergt 10 Sept 1917. Transferred to Class Z on demob 27 April 1919. His records show he was awarded the DCM. Also the Cross of Karageorge, 2nd Class (with swords) by His Majesty The King of Serbia (LG 13 Feb 1917). Can someone please explain the Cross of Karageorge.

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Sepoy

During the Great War, (not including the High Command) the Allied Countries, such as France, Belgium, Russia, Serbia and Italy, exchanged numbers of Medals to be awarded to worthy receipients. Serbia gave awards such as the Order of the White Eagle; the Cross of Karageorge; The Obilich Medal in gold (gilt) and Obilich Medal in silver.

These were then issued by the British to deserving receipients for actions/service which was, possibly, not sufficient to meet the requirements of a British award. On the whole these awards do not have citations (some Russian awards for Jutland do have citations). May be William Sullivan did gave further service which was not sufficient to be awarded a bar to his DCM, a Military Medal or Meritorious Service Medal.

I do not know the numbers of Cross of Karageorges' that were awarded to the British, but with the DCM it is certainly a very nice medal group.

Sepoy

NB I added a scan of my poor example on your other post.

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Dannemois

Hi Sepoy

Thanks for the details and thanks also for the scan, much appreciated

Regards, Roy

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ForeignGong

[

These were then issued by the British to deserving receipients for actions/service which was, possibly, not sufficient to meet the requirements of a British award. On the whole these awards do not have citations (some Russian awards for Jutland do have citations). May be William Sullivan did gave further service which was not sufficient to be awarded a bar to his DCM, a Military Medal or Meritorious Service Medal.

Hi

Must disagree with you re the above. It was not a case of "not sufficient to meet the requirements of a British award" but a case of not enough Imperial awards available to reward acts of bravery, courage and / or meritorious service. True there are very few "Recommendations and Citations" surviving for foreign awards, but the ones I have been able to view, reflect the fact that the authorities realised that the system did not allow for every deserving service man or women to be recognised with an Imperial award. As we all know lots of deserving people missed out. The foreign awards only helped to fill a small gap. There has always been a quota system for awards and the people putting forward names to be recognised knew this. Hence those making recommendations had to cull the names down and this took place all the way up the ladder from Bn to the top. Looking at the Aust War Memorial recommendation records, I have seen people put forward 2 or 3 times and still not be rewarded, and some of those recommendations are worthy of DCM's or MM's when compared to the actual recipients of those awards. Some Recommendations / Citations for foreign awards that I have viewed, would have easily have gained a DCM for the recipient.

This was still relevant in the Vietnam War were a mate of mine was recommended for a DCM at Bn, dropped down to MM at HQ and eventually he was MID. He was heavily involved in making a late (1980's) End of War List for the Vietnam War and during this he discovered records that listed the quota system. One example was 2 MID per 500 soldiers per 6 months.

Peter

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Dannemois

Thanks Peter;

I guess there could have been a case for every soldier in the trenches.

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ForeignGong

Roy

I also meant to say that the approx. total for all the headings for the 2nd Class used in the London Gazette was 92, so it is a very rare award and if you ever find the reason for William Sullivan's award could you please let me know so I can add it to my database.

Soldier's Order of the Star of Karageorge Instituted June 1915 in two divisions being divided into 1st division Gold Cross or 2nd division Silver Cross, awarded for bravery performed by non-commissioned officers and men on the field of battle. The badge design being as that of the Order with the exception that both crosses are without enamel and have crossed swords, they also carry different inscriptions on the circlets to that appearing on the four senior classes. Obverse medallion circlet reads FOR BRAVERY. Reverse medallion circlet reads PETER I, the Ribbon is Red.

Thanks

Peter

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Dannemois

Hi Peter

If I do find why Wm Sullivan received the award, you will be notified (any ideas where I can search)

Would you mind if I use a copy of the medal as an example awarded to Wm Sullivan. I am working on an article on local soldiers awarded gallantry medals for inclusion in a WW1 Journal (Commemorating the Centenary of WW1) by the Gelligaer Historical Society of which I am treasurer. If you give permission, obviously you will be credited so to that end I would appreciate how you would prefer the image credited (full name etc).

Regards Roy

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ForeignGong

Hi Roy

Local newspaper and / or War Diary may have something. The photo, I just Googled, so go ahead and use as you like.

Peter

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roselyn2

327 Sjt. C. Baker. Welsh R. Was awarded The Cross Of Karageorge 1st class. L. G. 15.2.1917. Was there a citation for this award ?. Would any member have a number of 1st class awarded ?.   Thank you.    Lyn.

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roselyn2
3 minutes ago, roselyn2 said:

327 Sjt. C. Baker. Welsh R. Was awarded The Cross Of Karageorge 1st class. L. G. 15.2.1917. Was there a citation for this award ?. Would any member have a number of 1st class awarded ?.   Thank you.    Lyn.

 

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