msdt Posted 6 October , 2014 Share Posted 6 October , 2014 Here are some pics of the 1913 I mentioned on the '1907 Bayonet Markings Help' topic. As I said then I think it is interesting that it has been somewhere to get an inspection, as most 1913's have no extra marks at all. Maybe the early manufacturing date is significant and it had actually been issued for training or something rather than disappearing into store due the production of SMLE rifles having got up to speed. It looks refinished, though I assume that is much later work done nearer WW2. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 October , 2014 Share Posted 7 October , 2014 A very interesting marking Tony. It certainly looks like a '17 but it's a bit hard to be certain what it is with the overstamping and partial imprints etc. It is one of the very earliest of the American made P1913's, from memory December 1915 is the earliest dated Remington that I have seen before. The thing that I find intriguing is that the inspection marking doesn't seem to have the E for Enfield at the bottom. I am not sure exactly what that is.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 October , 2014 Share Posted 7 October , 2014 (edited) It looks to me like it MIGHT be IS I will need to check but I think I have seen this on Indian inspection stamps. It is known that a shipment of Pattern 14 rifles and bayonets went directly to India. A good number of these rifle (mostly DP'd) have been sold in the US in recent years. Without citing any source Robert Edwards (India's Enfield p 44-47) states this shipment took place in "1916 direct from the Remington factory"). He includes a picture of Calcutta University Territorials armed with P14s/13s in 1918. I too have a 12 15 dated Pattern '13 - here are some poor photos of mine. I'll dig it out and rephotograph EDIT: confirmed that IS does show up as inspection stamp on Indian ShtLEs Edited 7 October , 2014 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 October , 2014 Share Posted 7 October , 2014 EDIT: confirmed that IS does show up as inspection stamp on Indian ShtLEs Yes there is a photo in "British & Commonwealth Bayonets" on page 346 (and shown again on page 355) which illustrates this type of Ishapore inspection marking. It appears to be a WW2 era marking and the IS letters are accompanied by varying numbers immediately underneath, which doesn't really fit with the scenario here. But then again I have no better suggestion, except that it is very odd. The inspection mark appears to be in British format with Crown/Number/Letter but not with E.? And the apparent partial '17 is also hard to be certain of, with something visible directly below that letter (K.??) ... so all in all, it is a particularly mysterious marking. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 8 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2014 From the original image: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 October , 2014 Share Posted 8 October , 2014 Thanks for the ultra-closeup Tony ... (whoahh back-up a bit) ... you can't get much more detailed than that.! Anyway it does help confirm a couple of things I had been thinking about. Firstly it is certainly a standard format British inspection marking. And the broken sided (partial) Crown at the top that I had been looking at also fits with a wartime "reissue" marking (see the photo below) I also think the (partial) number shown could be the 5 from the 35 combination. And the letter at the bottom still looks to me like it is a "K". And then there is the '17 which appears to have a very large 'hook' to it immediately under the K, and confusingly is missing its upper bar.! I have never seen a letter K used before, but it does fit with what was apparently happening with the wartime repairs and refurbishments. I have asked about the RE letters before as they do show up with some regularity, always in conjunction with the wartime "reissue" dates. The number 35 is associated with the Enfield inspectorate (you commonly see Crown/35/E on the pre-war manufactured bayonets, etc.) I think of it being the "master number" as it seems to be ubiquitous with RSAF Enfield. Perhaps it was the Chief Inspectors own number.? Anyway there were some strange things going on with inspection markings during the war, and I believe this letter K is more evidence of this. With the huge increase in workload during the war, it may be that extra workshops or Ordnance Depots were utilised, one of which used a K.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 14 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2014 Hi S>S, Just back from my first trip to Verdun. Thanks for the input. Guess we'll have to 'file it' for now and await further examples of such a mark. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thEngineers Posted 12 November , 2014 Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Hello! Excellent sample of a Remington Pattern 13 bayonet. I do not have the precise date Remington commenced P-13 bayonet production, but I know that Remington was engaged in production of the Pattern 1907 bayonets as early as March 1915. It seems that production was low until around October 1915, when it appears to have increased somewhat. Since I do not have a photo showing a March 1915 date at hand, this April 1915 must suffice. Perhaps the Pattern 13 production was delayed as a result? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 12 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Hi 12thEngineers, Thanks for the comments. Are you not talking about Remington production of the 1907 in your final paragraph? 100,000 were produced for the British SMLE, and November 1915 seems a common date. The thinking above is that December 1915 is the earliest date for a 1913 bayonet. Likewise the LOC about drilling clearance holes is for 1907's as far as I know. I don't think I've seen a 1913 with a clearance hole, certainly none on my examples (all but the earliest 1917's have them though). It would be very interesting if you have examples or pictures of 1913's before December 1915. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thEngineers Posted 13 November , 2014 Share Posted 13 November , 2014 Hi Tony, I had gotten the topic mixed up a little while looking for the image, and then edited to fix my mistake. I must have just edited it as you were typing and did not see your reply. I was thinking that the production of P-07s (by Remington) seems to have picked up around September-October of 1915, but it took them almost (based on personal observation of dated bayonets) a year before we see the same apparent increase in P-13 production. I would almost venture to say that 1917 dated P-13's are the most common. My point being that it seems odd Remington (apparently) could not keep up with the increased output once the change to the P-13 was made; and yet they are nearly the same bayonet. The P-14 rifles evidently had some production problems which affected their acceptance, and I wonder if that in turn kept the P-13 bayonet production down. They had the capability as evidenced by the P-07s, and then it seems like the bottom fell out and they lost momentum again. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2014 Hi 12thEngineers, I see! That does look like one early Remington 1907 in good nick. I presume that production of the 1913's was affected by the relevant contracts. Unfortunately our expert on these is recently deceased, Tony Edwards, RIP. In the UK the main use of 1913 / 1917 bayonets was to equip the Home Guard in WW2, as they seem to have been little used in WW1 - hence my original post as to how my example earned a reissue mark. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2014 Hi 12thEngineers, I see! That does look like one early Remington 1907 in good nick. I presume that production of the 1913's was affected by the relevant contracts. Unfortunately our expert on these is recently deceased, Tony Edwards, RIP. In the UK the main use of 1913 / 1917 bayonets was to equip the Home Guard in WW2, as they seem to have been little used in WW1 - hence my original post as to how my example earned a reissue mark. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 November , 2014 Share Posted 13 November , 2014 Tony, remember that quite a lot of the P1913 bayonets were used at home in the training role on the P'14 rifles. It's common to see photos of the men armed with these. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 Hi 12thEngineers, I see! That does look like one early Remington 1907 in good nick. I presume that production of the 1913's was affected by the relevant contracts. Unfortunately our expert on these is recently deceased, Tony Edwards, RIP. In the UK the main use of 1913 / 1917 bayonets was to equip the Home Guard in WW2, as they seem to have been little used in WW1 - hence my original post as to how my example earned a reissue mark. Cheers, Tony If you are interested in the production and contracts for the Pattern '13 bayonet and Pattern '14 rifle you could do worse than have a look at Luke Mercaldo's book on "Allied Rifle Contracts in America" - to which TonyE contributed. I would differ slightly with S>S - photos of P13/14 in WWI British service (even training) are, in my experience, quite hard to find. I think I have been able to pick up two in the last 15 years..I have more pictures of Arisakas in WWI use than P14s! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 I would differ slightly with S>S - photos of P13/14 in WWI British service (even training) are, in my experience, quite hard to find. I think I have been able to pick up two in the last 15 years..I have more pictures of Arisakas in WWI use than P14s! Have you seen this one before Chris.? See here http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205296323 Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 Same photograph from a different angle. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 I was thinking that the production of P-07s (by Remington) seems to have picked up around September-October of 1915, but it took them almost (based on personal observation of dated bayonets) a year before we see the same apparent increase in P-13 production. I would almost venture to say that 1917 dated P-13's are the most common. My point being that it seems odd Remington (apparently) could not keep up with the increased output once the change to the P-13 was made; and yet they are nearly the same bayonet. 12thEngineers, The first deliveries of a total of 100,000 of the Pattern 1907 Sword-Bayonet made in the U.S.A. by Remington were received into Britain in July 1915. Deliveries of the Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonet made in the U.S.A. by Remington commenced in early May 1916. Deliveries of the Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonet made by Winchester commenced a few weeks later. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 Thanks I had seen this one - but only a couple of days ago! I stumbled onto it when looking for something else... It's a great photo - on the version LF posted it looks as though it is an Eddystone rifle in the "fatboy" wood (without the grasping grooves) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 14 November , 2014 Share Posted 14 November , 2014 I don't think I've seen a 1913 with a clearance hole, certainly none on my examples (all but the earliest 1917's have them though). It would be very interesting if you have examples or pictures of 1913's before December 1915. Cheers, Tony Tony, There will be no pictures of British Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonets dated before December 1915, as this bayonet was not approved until early 1916. Although Skennerton & Richardson's book on page 192 refers to the British Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonet as having a clearance hole, that is not specified in the List of Changes para 17798 which introduced this bayonet, and as you say, many Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonets do not have a clearance hole drilled in the pommel. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Tony, a pretty comprehensive discussion on the clearance hole matter is at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=218182&page=2entry2161416 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Have you seen this one before Chris.? See here http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205296323 Cheers, S>S Nice photograph, one of three. How about the caption though? "Sergeant of the cyclist battalion of the Dorset Regiment in marching (sic) order." The LLT doesn't list a cyclist battalion of the Dorsets! Apart from which I guess that with a rifle carried that way bandy-legged cyclists were specifically selected - perhaps we should ask scalyback for his comments on the matter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Hi Trajan, The clearance hole bit in this thread is a bit of a cross-wired job with me quickly answering a now edited post! Out of interest though, does anyone have an example of a 1913 bayonet with a clearance hole? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Out of interest though, does anyone have an example of a 1913 bayonet with a clearance hole? Cheers, Tony Tony, None of my 3 Pattern 1913 Sword-Bayonets have a clearance hole. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Here is the image that I originally found which led me to the source at the IWM. No mistaking the date, rifle or regiment from this caption ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 Here is the image that I originally found which led me to the source at the IWM. No mistaking the date, rifle or regiment from this caption ... S>S, A great photo of the P14 rifle in WW1 period use, it is a shame the P13 bayonet grip is hidden. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now