Stuart Brown Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 The following describes how the selection of the wording for the personal inscription on a headstone was decided. Below is an OCR scan of part of a standard letter sent by The Imperial War Graves Commission, to the widow of 16022 Pte Walmsley, A. , Notts & Derby , (Hooge Crater Cem.) The form, apart from the handwritten details of Pte Walmsley , remains blank , obviously was not returned and the assumption is that no inscription will be found on this particular headstone. Dear Sir or Madam, The Imperial War Graves Commission desire to make preparation for the erection of a headstone in....CEMETERY Hooge Crater over the grave of:- details of deceased, regiment, date of death, Plot 2 Row B Grave 2 The headstone will have engraved on it the naval or military inscription, the badge of the deceased's naval or military unit, and an emblem of his religious faith. The Commission would be obliged if you would kindly assist them by saying whether the above particulars, name, initials, honours, etc., are correct, in order that the naval or military inscription may be absolutely accurate. A space " a " is provided on the opposite page for any corrections you may desire to make. If you wish the age to be engraved will you give particulars in the space on the opposite page after the word AGE. In addition. a space has been reserved at the foot of the headstone, below the emblem of religious faith for the engraving, at your own expense, of a short personal inscription or text of your own choice. It is regretted that special alphabets, such as Greek, cannot be accepted. The length of the inscription is limited by the space available on the headstone, and should in consequence not exceed 66 letters, the space between two words counting as one letter. For instance if you choose 12 words, the total number of actual letters should not exceed 55, there being 11 spaces between the words. If you desire to use this space will you kindly write (clearly) the inscription or text you select in the space " b' opposite. A claim for the amount due from you in respect of the engraving of the selected inscription, will be sent to you In due course. The present price is 3 1/2d. per letter, but this may be subject to future fluctuations of cost. Unless you express a wish to the contrary in the space " c " opposite, a cross will be engraved in the centre of the stone, Yours faithfully, FABIAN WARE, Major General, Vice-Chairman. IMPERIAL WAR GRAVES COMMISSION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Thinking back to Lt Langton's musical inscription which we discussed recently, I wonder what the bill was for his inscription? Did the four spaces of the stave count as four letters, adding one shilling and twopence to the invoice? Sadly, we'll probably never know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Not quite on the same note (no pun intended - honest!). A couple of years ago I met the owners of a firm of monumental masons in Startford upon Avon. The firm has been in existence for many years and had a contract with the CWGC to inscribe headstones in the 1920's. Much to my suprise and delight they said they still had the original equipment along with a table of charges and some original bills. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Albert was a member of "The Men from the Greenwood" (11th Sherwoods). I have a photo of his headstone in my files. Have you researched him Stuart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Brown Posted 2 May , 2003 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Hello Richard, Not fully researched him. The document is with other ephemera.The postal address on one is simply - Mrs PS Walmsley, Lower Calow, Nr Chesterfield, Derbys. For your records his place of residence at marriage was Towcester.There is a photograph of him which I will gladly send an image to you or place here for anyone to download. I have the 11th history. There is also his Soldiers Small Book, very poor condition, I once saw a documentary on The Somme where a veteran described burying men and with documents such as this wrapping them up into a parcel and placing the parcel in the helmet which was then placed over the inverted rifle for the information of the graves commission so that is rather emotive. If you have a picture of the headstone I would appreciate an image. I have requested a favour from someone going to the battlefields next week to try and obtain one so a fairly quick reply from you will be appreciated and I can cancel the request. Would you please add for the benefit of the group whether or not there is an inscription in view of the original posting. I have not seen one of these War Graves Commission letters before. It may well be a project to scan all sides and arrange it into an attachment to be sent out to whoever wants it but PLEASE do not hit me requests yet. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 The text on the form above is from the Final Verification Form sent to all n-o-k by IWGC after WW1 & WW2. Its blank state and non-return would suggest no Personal Inscription but I shall check at Hooge if I can this weekend. All these forms (WW1 only) were burnt in the early 1970s when CWGC moved to Maidenhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Despite some current upheaval in the household, I was able to locate the photo. Unfortunately there is no inscription at the base. And here is the photo. Let me kmow if you'd rather have a proper photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Yes on the image, please, and anything else you have on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Well, tofay's practise is : you get no whatsoever notification from Maidenhead!!! When the new gravestone for my Grandad was carved and subsequently erected in 2000 (at the occasion of personalizing a former unknown grave on CGWC Merville, Communal Extension) I was not involved, nor informed about the ongoings, although I was the requester and also contacted Maidenhead. I was only very thankful, when I was properly notified by German War Grave Commission to include pictures, descriptions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 2 May , 2003 Share Posted 2 May , 2003 Here we go: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 3 May , 2003 Share Posted 3 May , 2003 Egbert Your assumption about being informed by CWGC is wrong. They do inform any involved notifiers particularly if they are relatives. The circumstances in your case are different as it is a German war grave. In the cases of foreign war graves, it is the responsibility of the foreign government to undertake all communication with informants as the grave is officially their responsibility (and they pay for the headstone). CWGC will maintain the grave as has been agreed with the overseas authorities and will record the basic details of the casualty (usually only name, date of death and service - no rank or regt). So CWGC have done no wrong in your case and the German authorities have also behaved correctly by keeping you informed. I have been in the same position with a British grave and got the same service including photos from CWGC as you describe getting from the Germans. The system works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 3 May , 2003 Share Posted 3 May , 2003 Thank you Terry, I got the procedure! Questions: 1. Who pays for maintaining a foreign national grave on CWGC grounds In this case the "Volksbund fuer Kriegsgraeberfuersorge"? 2. Who has authority for uniform headstone appearance in this particular case ? 3. Do we have a picture about the annual costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 3 May , 2003 Share Posted 3 May , 2003 Egbert Sorry, I forgot to say "Well Done" for getting this stone erected! CWGC pay for maintaining foreign headstones in their cemeteries under agreements with the foreign governments. The deal usually includes the arrangement that the foreign government will look after any Commonwealth stones in their cemeteries. If there is no such joint agreement, then CWGC maintain them anyway but, in this case, there is an agreement with Germany. The design of the headstones is the responsibility of the foreign authority although CWGC do sometimes ask for modifications to fit the uniform style of their cemeteries (ie French crosses are shorter in CWGC cemeteries than in French so that they do not stand taller than British headstones). I have never seen any costs specifically relating to foreign graves in CWGC care but they must exist due to the way costs are apportioned by the Commission - UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa & India paying in proportion to the number of graves/memorial names they have each. This must leave the foreign graves to account for but I believe the UK government picks up the bill for these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 4 May , 2003 Share Posted 4 May , 2003 Terry, absolut comprehensive information; you must be a big guy with CWGC-management? Thanx for another great answer on this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 May , 2003 Share Posted 4 May , 2003 Egbert I have no official connection with CWGC management (just a humble amateur researcher like all other Pals) but I have made a determined effort to find out how they work as part of my personal interest in war graves. To add to my comments on how CWGC allocate costs, it is not quite as simple as a straight apportionment according to proportion of names 'owned' by each country. The costs are initially split according to number of names but then two adjustments are made. Firstly an adjustment is made for the number of names appearing on memorials as opposed to having actual graves - memorial names are cheaper to maintain than graves. Secondly, a further adjustment is made to take account of the fact some countries pay for the maintenance of all war graves on their own territory regardless of nationality (ie NZ authorities pay for all war graves in NZ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 6 May , 2003 Share Posted 6 May , 2003 To go slightly at a tangent.... I was at Longuenesse Souvenir Cemetery on Saturday, where there are some 30 Chinese Labour Corps graves. I don't have the Mandarin, or Cantonese, to translate the pictograms on the stones. But all have an English inscription - which seemed to be dreadfully monotonous in selections (as in 'perm any one from four') and didn't seem terribly oriental in spirit. E.g. 'A good reputation endures forever' Is there anyone more knowledgeable on the naming policy for CLC stones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 6 May , 2003 Share Posted 6 May , 2003 I believe also Pakistan no longer contributes to CWGC. Perhaps in their defense it may be impossible to say how many soldiers from undivided India were from what is now Pakistan. Religion would not do with India having over 100 million Muslems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 May , 2003 Share Posted 7 May , 2003 The phrases carved on Chinese Labour Corps headstones are well known sayings by Confucius. They were selected by fellow Chinese. Interestingly, CWGC has only just compiled a complete list of the English version of the names on the CLC headstones as the original lists were incomplete. I have this list should anyone want to know the English version of any Chinese war grave name. The new English versions also often differ from those printed in the CWGC registers (where they appear - not all do) because of changes in the way the language is now translated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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