Royal Air Force marked bayonets

[trajan]

Thanks! That's a lovely one - and so nice to see a complete WILKINSON / PALL MALL stamp. So, 're-issued' in 1920... They are getting to be like the apocryphal London No. 7 bus - but that's ok by me! I'll let JMB take it from here as he is a lot more organised than I!

[RGJDEE]

👍🏻

[JMB1943]

Richard,

 

Thanks for that one.

It is, Incidentally, the best “PALL MALL “ marking that I have ever seen.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Soldier28]

Hi All,

I have a RAF Bayonet as follows,

 

Made by Sanderson Dated 1917 and re-issued to RAF.

Condition good with some age and pitting.

 

Wood Grips excellent, no dents and marked with RAF Regiment.

Scabbard Black Leather, Teardrop stud and some dents on the cape.

Original RAF Blue cloth Frog

 

See photos for markings

 

May consider a swap for an excellent 1907 Irish Infantry ideally RIR dated 1914 or 16 or a later "as new/unissued" variant.

 

[trajan]

32 minutes ago, Soldier28 said:

... Made by Sanderson Dated 1917 and re-issued to RAF.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Soldier28,

 

And welcome to GWForum! Can't help with the exchange, unless you are somewhere near Sheffield when I visit the UK in August and can get you a plain P.1907!

 

But this is a really nice and rather important piece in terms of the information that JMB and I have been collecting.

 

Firstly, the first one I have seen (JMB?) with an under the pommel marking. Is the left side of the pommel marked? A very odd place to for a marking!

 

Secondly, on spacing grounds the mark was perhaps "R.A.F. / 1? /  7 4(?) 9(?)". 

 

Third and most importantly, that "RAF REGT" stamp on the grip! I won't go into details here as JMB and I (more him than I!) are still thinking on who used these bayonets and when, and what excatly the series of markings means.   

 

Is the top of the scabbard also marked for the RAF? And any markings on the back of the frog?

 

Trajan

[RGJDEE]

Did someone mention No 7 bus.

this one is mine 😀

[trajan]

Gor blimey matey! Another under the pommel as well!

 

So, what are the other markings - ricasso and anything on the pommel? These could be rubbed-out or semi-rubbed out... But useful to know. I have no idea honestly where this might lead both JMB and I too, but the more data the better!

 

JMB who is more on the ball than I am right now with all these ones will hopefully respond later. The odd thing is that these RAF-marked ones are all GWF surplus (hence discussed here on GWF) but the official emblem of the RAF regiment as created in 1914 - correct me if I am wrong - was the Mk. 4, the implication being that they used that pattern. However, a quick google of RAF Regiment badges shows some squadrons with P.1907 rifles and even one (the 15th) with (?)P.1907 bayonets.

Edited 14 March , 2019 by trajan

[RGJDEE]

Ok so here’s the rest of my RAF P 1907 a Chapman example. 2/18

[JMB1943]

Gentlemen,

 

My world will never be the same, after seeing not one but two pommels marked in that location!!

Yes, it does look like RAF/1/749 under there, and 749 on the flat does echo that serial number.

Unusual that it is not “0749” cf. 0681 of Mr. D’s bayonet, and all the other 3-digit numbers that we have recorded.

Also Interesting is that they are both of the “1” series.

It is nice to see these variations on a theme.

 

Regards,

JMB

Edit: Soldier & Mr.Dee——are there any re-inspection dates on your blades?

 

Edited 14 March , 2019 by JMB1943
Add info

[trajan]

Yes, very odd to have two in a row now under the pommel markings. I vaguely recall someone on another thread (maybe SS?) saying these might indicate Canadian usage. Who knows!I BUT, it is useful to have that one (soldier28) unambiguously stamped for RAR Regt use. 

 

Where do we go from here? Keep searching and registering!

 

Julina

[trajan]

1 hour ago, RGJDEE said:

Ok so here’s the rest of my RAF P 1907 a Chapman example. 2/18

 

Looking back on this while trying also to follow the HofC debates on something regarding the UK and membershihip or otherwise of something else - thoses grips are not original? Agreed?

[trajan]

JMB - quick thought, as I am still following HofC proceedings. Are most of these RAF one really late GW ones? I.e., stocks that didna go out? Then available for scrubbing of ricassos (why?) and re-issue?

Edited 14 March , 2019 by trajan

[JMB1943]

3 minutes ago, trajan said:

JMB - quick thought, as I am still following HofC proceedings. Are most of these RAF one really late GW ones? I.e., stocks that didna go out? Then available for scrubbing of ricassos (why?) and re-issue?

 

Trajan,

 

Yes, most are '17, '18 BUT there are also 4 x '09-'11 and 1 x '15.

The grips on Richard's bayonet do seem to stand more proud of the pommel than usual.

Just did a quick finger-nail survey of my P.'07's and it is not always obvious; maybe some of mine have been re-gripped??

 

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

Hmmm... Idly looking at RAF Reg. badges...While wating for votes in the HofC... Some sub-units have crossed Mk.4's, the official bage, others have crossed SMLE's. Only the 15th seems to show a bayonet. Google https://www.google.com/search?q=badges+of+the+RAF+regiment&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG2rLk_4HhAhWDKFAKHVNOA_EQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1311&bih=608#imgdii=MQjB7mRcSHrdwM:&imgrc=wdOsNKEqy4AGTM:

 

Wonder if there is any connection? 

[Soldier28]

I'll just add these additional photos trajan for you.

Only Scabbard marking on back leather.

Frog has something on back, but illegible or just a stain?

 

Will look at other comments as its stirring a good debate and I cant keep up  

I did think this was special with the stamps possibly for caught behind lines in Africa?

 

I had to go into the

 

[RGJDEE]

2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Gentlemen,

 

My world will never be the same, after seeing not one but two pommels marked in that location!!

Yes, it does look like RAF/1/749 under there, and 749 on the flat does echo that serial number.

Unusual that it is not “0749” cf. 0681 of Mr. D’s bayonet, and all the other 3-digit numbers that we have recorded.

Also Interesting is that they are both of the “1” series.

It is nice to see these variations on a theme.

 

Regards,

JMB

Edit: Soldier & Mr.Dee——are there any re-inspection dates on your blades?

 

JMB will check and post as appropriate .

best wishes

R

[N White]

Happened to see this one today... did not see it in the thread earlier.

(Not mine).

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-WWII-Wilkinson-British-Bayonet-Marked-RAF/293005750471?hash=item443880f0c7:g:VKYAAOSw~LpciTjT

 

[JMB1943]

NWhite,

 

Thanks for that latest example, yet another marked on the underside of the pommel, and again from the “1” series.

Was there an armourer who misread the marking instructions for these three Bayonets, that are all below 1800?

Was he subsequently corrected/transferred so that all of those above 1800 were stamped correctly?

Was it a parade bayonet,, with red-painted grips and chape?

Lots of speculation possible here......

 

Soldier28,

Thanks for those extra photos.

The pommel shows the “sold out of service” mark——the two opposed Broad arrows.

Interesting that they are underscored and “ overscored” —-have not seen that previously.

The scabbard mark might be a J inside a diamond; this is possibly for Jewell Co of the USA.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited 14 March , 2019 by JMB1943

[trajan]

8 hours ago, N White said:

Happened to see this one today... did not see it in the thread earlier.

(Not mine).

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-WWII-Wilkinson-British-Bayonet-Marked-RAF/293005750471?hash=item443880f0c7:g:VKYAAOSw~LpciTjT

 

 

7 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

NWhite,

 

Thanks for that latest example, yet another marked on the underside of the pommel, and again from the “1” series.

Was there an armourer who misread the marking instructions for these three Bayonets, that are all below 1800?

Was he subsequently corrected/transferred so that all of those above 1800 were stamped correctly?

Was it a parade bayonet,, with red-painted grips and chape?

Lots of speculation possible here......

 

Soldier28,

Thanks for those extra photos.

The pommel shows the “sold out of service” mark——the two opposed Broad arrows.

Interesting that they are underscored and “ overscored” —-have not seen that previously.

The scabbard mark might be a J inside a diamond; this is possibly for Jewell Co of the USA.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

Bloomin' 'eck, as my mum and dad would say... Off-hand I wonder if we have more of these RAF marked ones than from any other single unit - at least as far as what has been shown on GWF is concerned...

 

I agree on the Jewell, for what it is worth.

 

Wern't drill rifles painted red? I have a vague memory of some Enfield rifles with red pain on them - 4G?

 

Julian

[MikeyH]

Julian and JMB,

There is a P1907 coming up for auction locally, both bayonet and scabbard throat are clearly marked R.A.F.  The bayonet is an

Enfield dated April 1912 with a 1922 re-issue date, it also carries a 'sold out of service' stamp, on the ricasso.  The pommel R.A.F. stamp (on the opposite side to the release button)

has a number under it possibly 10, or more likely 1C but difficult to make out, then a line and the number 9235.  The auctioneers

estimate is £100 to £140.

 

Mike.

Edited 15 March , 2019 by MikeyH

[Soldier28]

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/vickers-1907-pattern-bayonet-scabbard-regimentally-marked-to/Blades/1068376

 

Another RAF one found today.  It's not got RAF grip stamps so other than pommel RAF, can't see how it's regimentally marked.

[Soldier28]

MikeyH

The worn 1C could be the 1D we have seen on a few examples. 

[MikeyH]

1 minute ago, Soldier28 said:

MikeyH

The worn 1C could be the 1D we have seen on a few examples. 

 

Have just 'enlarged' the photo, definitely 1C, can now see the 'tail' on the C.

Mike.

[trajan]

20 minutes ago, Soldier28 said:

https://www.gunstar.co.uk/vickers-1907-pattern-bayonet-scabbard-regimentally-marked-to/Blades/1068376

 

Another RAF one found today.  It's not got RAF grip stamps so other than pommel RAF, can't see how it's regimentally marked.

 

Thanks again Soldier28

 

So that one is: "... date 7 18 (July 1918) and VICKERS. ... The pommel is stamped R.A.F. over I.D and 6563." And a '22'  're-issue date - seems to be pretty common on these?

 

Photograph from web-site reproduced for research purposes.

 

I am beginning to wonder if the 100th anniversary of the RAF (albeit last year) has played a part in so many of these ones appearing now...

 

 

[trajan]

45 minutes ago, MikeyH said:

Julian and JMB,

There is a P1907 coming up for auction locally, both bayonet and scabbard throat are clearly marked R.A.F.  The bayonet is an Enfield dated April 1912 with a 1922 re-issue date, it also carries a 'sold out of service' stamp, on the ricasso.  The pommel R.A.F. stamp ... has a number under it possibly 10, or more likely 1C but difficult to make out, then a line and the number 9235. 

 

Thanks Mike, again a 22 date, and 1C would be fine - we have a 1.C. 9303 listed... Any chance of a link to the auctioneers for an enquiry or photograph?