To clean or not to clean

[welshdoc]

Used to clean them now dont unless they are obtained covered in crud. One I cleaned was covered in tar, and 1 this week was covered in soot and grime not I may add patina. Turned out the medal which I thought was erased turned out to apparently be a rare unamed MSM (yet to be confirmed as genuine). I am about to attempt to remove ships varnish from a memorial plaque, havn't had the nerve to try as yet.

As for the original question some BWM medals never seem to tarnish others do rapidly much be the silver properties and if they are over polished they do lose value unless they are particularly rare. As for the victory, once the original "golden" finish is gone its gone and the medal soon looks dull even after polishing so leave well alone.

[centurion]

If we are talking about ww1 medals we should remember that by the time most of the soldiers who received medals were well and truly out of the service anyhow, so polishing up for the

parade would not be carried out.

Probably didn't even keep their cohorts gleaming

[madman]

phill , i appreciate where your coming from on that one, maybe i should have specified a little more , i recently purchased a vm that was in a sorry state covered in rust so , after 24 hours in coke (the drink) i lightly rubbed with a very fine grade wire wool to remove the rust and other muck, the medal as a result now looks new , all this was done to preserve it, as rust in time would carrode ,as i am by no means any kind of expert on such things , i thought i would see where the majority stood on this subject , i will see if i can post a picture later to get an opinion on the result ,

regards nathan

[Old Owl]

I clean the medals in my collection by washing with a soft well worn tooth brush

and warm soapy water, but care must be taken to avoiding getting the ribbons wet

if they cannot be removed from the medal.

Connaught Stranger.

I think you have described the cleaning method of the majority here, and this is usually all that is required, however if the medals have been stored in damp conditions and this relates mainly to WW1 Stars and Victory medals then oxidisation can occur in the form of greeny/blue stains(copper oxide) and these are better removed as they eat into the surface of the medal and can cause quite serious damage. Unfortunately these type of stains can be quite difficult to remove and may entail methods not normally associated with the cleaning of medals, so great care must be taken to avoid doing even more damage.

It is really down to the custodian of the medals as to how they clean the medals in their custody, but it is always best to remember that the less worn the medals are in appearance then the more desirable they will be to a future custodian.

Robert

[Arnhem44]

I never clean any of the medals I have although I did have one laser repaired that had the suspension bar cleanly cracked off which when it came back was polished by the jeweller,I was disappointed but accepted it had to be done.I personally prefer not to clean them though.

Brendan

[PhilB]

As for the original question some BWM medals never seem to tarnish others do rapidly much be the silver properties

I think,more probably, the conditions of storage. Silver sulphide formation is the usual cause and hydrogen sulphide the chief culprit. Coal fires and cigarette smoke used to be the main sources.

[Waggoner]

When it comes to cleaning medals, less is best! Cleaning, any kind of cleaning, removes part of the surface. Of course, a stiff brushing with Silvo will remove a great deal more than a gentle washing with soap and water. However, as the custodian of the medals, it is for each person to decide what to do. But, if you wish to sell them on at some point in time, the better the condition - the better the price!

All the best,

Gary

[madman]

in error i didnt take a picture of the medal in its rust covered state , but this is what triggered my origional question(surley better un-carroded?) , thanks all , at least now the rust will not completeley spoil this small piece of history .

regards madman

[Old Owl]

in error i didnt take a picture of the medal in its rust covered state , but this is what triggered my origional question(surley better un-carroded?) , thanks all , at least now the rust will not completeley spoil this small piece of history .

regards madman

Hi MM,

Your cleaning certainly seems to have done the trick and without too much damage. However I would just like to point out that a Victory Medal cannot rust(ferrous oxide) as this is something which only ferrous(iron based) materials can do and as the V.M. is made from a non-ferrous (copper based) material it can only corrode through the formation of copper oxide on the surface.

I can understand why you think that this is rust, because when the gilded finish begins to flake off in patches then the exposed brass(or as some would call it-- bronze) begins to oxidise through contact with moisture in the air, this makes dark brown patches on the surface which may be mistaken for rust, when they are infact the copper oxides forming on the surface.

Sorry to appear pedantic, but just thought that you may be interested.

Robert

[madman]

hi robert,

thank you far that ,what you described is what was on the medal(one big dark reddy brown stain) very helpful to know ,it sounded in no way pedantic ,all help and advive is always welcome and appreciated

regards

nathan

[Old Owl]

hi robert,

thank you far that ,what you described is what was on the medal(one big dark reddy brown stain) very helpful to know ,it sounded in no way pedantic ,all help and advive is always welcome and appreciated

regards

nathan

You are most welcome.

[depaor01]

Some medals (1914-15 stars included) which I cleaned thirty years ago have regained their patina since, so I don't believe any lasting damage will be done if they are cleaned. I also used Silver Dip back then which was effective even on the bronze items.

Haven't cleaned them since!

[centurion]

Hi MM,

Your cleaning certainly seems to have done the trick and without too much damage. However I would just like to point out that a Victory Medal cannot rust(ferrous oxide) as this is something which only ferrous(iron based) materials can do and as the V.M. is made from a non-ferrous (copper based) material it can only corrode through the formation of copper oxide on the surface.

I can understand why you think that this is rust, because when the gilded finish begins to flake off in patches then the exposed brass(or as some would call it-- bronze) begins to oxidise through contact with moisture in the air, this makes dark brown patches on the surface which may be mistaken for rust, when they are infact the copper oxides forming on the surface.

Sorry to appear pedantic, but just thought that you may be interested.

Robert

While Pedaniticism flourishes I've seen the following definition of rust "Rust is scientifically called oxidation, which occurs when oxygen comes in long-term contact with certain metals. Over time, the oxygen combines with the metal at an atomic level, forming a new compound called an oxide and weakening the bonds of the metal itself. If the base metal is iron or steel, the resulting rust is properly called iron oxide. Rusted aluminum would be called aluminum oxide, copper forms copper oxide and so on."

[PhilB]

That definition appears to be from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-rust.htm but it`s not one I`d go along with. I`d say that, metallurgically, rust can only be an iron compound and it can`t be described simply as iron oxide but is a complicated mix of ferrous/ferric oxides and other iron salts. I think Wiki has it right:-

Rust is a general term for a series of iron oxides. Colloquially, the term is applied to red oxides, formed by the reaction of iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. Yet, there are also other forms of rust, such as the result of the reaction of iron and chlorine in an environment deprived of oxygen, such as rebar used in underwater concrete pillars, which generates green rust. Several forms of rust are distinguishable visually and by spectroscopy, and form under different circumstances.[1] Rust consists of hydrated iron(III) oxides Fe2O3·nH2O and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3). Given sufficient time, oxygen, and water, any iron mass will eventually convert entirely to rust and disintegrate. Surface rust provides no protection to the underlying iron unlike the formation of patina on copper surfaces.

Rusting is the common term for corrosion of iron and its alloys, such as steel. Many other metals undergo equivalent corrosion, but the resulting oxides are not commonly called rust.

[Arnhem44]

Whilst cleaning medals comes down to the individual in whether they want to clean them or not I'm just wondering would medals fall into the same category as coins if selling.The price of coins are devalued in the eyes of a collector if the coins have been cleaned,collectors preferring the coins to be in an untouched condition no matter what age they are.Would medals be viewed the same?

Brendan

[Waggoner]

Brendan,

Collectors of medals tend to focus more on the story of the recipient than on the condition of the medals. However, condition does matter and, given two similar groups with similar histories, the group in the better condition should be worth more.

All the best,

Gary

[welshdoc]

By the By keep wire wool etc well away from medals as they will end up scratched to Bug**ry particularly so for silver ones. AS for my varnished plaque I used "jelly" paintstripper with cotton buds which lossened the varnish which was wiped off with a rag and then washed under a tap. Thoroughly dried and surprisingly there seems to be no ill affect on the underlying patina (I tried an area on the back of the plaque first). I thought it would look like polished brass.

[Old Owl]

That definition appears to be from http://www.wisegeek....hat-is-rust.htm but it`s not one I`d go along with. I`d say that, metallurgically, rust can only be an iron compound and it can`t be described simply as iron oxide but is a complicated mix of ferrous/ferric oxides and other iron salts. I think Wiki has it right:-

Rust is a general term for a series of iron oxides. Colloquially, the term is applied to red oxides, formed by the reaction of iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. Yet, there are also other forms of rust, such as the result of the reaction of iron and chlorine in an environment deprived of oxygen, such as rebar used in underwater concrete pillars, which generates green rust. Several forms of rust are distinguishable visually and by spectroscopy, and form under different circumstances.[1] Rust consists of hydrated iron(III) oxides Fe2O3·nH2O and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3). Given sufficient time, oxygen, and water, any iron mass will eventually convert entirely to rust and disintegrate. Surface rust provides no protection to the underlying iron unlike the formation of patina on copper surfaces.

Rusting is the common term for corrosion of iron and its alloys, such as steel. Many other metals undergo equivalent corrosion, but the resulting oxides are not commonly called rust.

Thanks Phil--I knew that I was pretty well on the right track, but it's always nice to have someone with expert knowledge as backup.

Sorry Centurion, but it seems that I may have been pedantically correct or at least partly, for a change!!

[Old Owl]

Whilst cleaning medals comes down to the individual in whether they want to clean them or not I'm just wondering would medals fall into the same category as coins if selling.The price of coins are devalued in the eyes of a collector if the coins have been cleaned,collectors preferring the coins to be in an untouched condition no matter what age they are.Would medals be viewed the same?

Brendan

Coin collectors are notoriously fussy about condition and probably quite rightly so, as condition is about the only thing that a coin has going for it, other than it's monetary value(I am sure that others may disagree with this statement!!). However a named medal is unique and as such can be researched, a coin on the other hand can tell you very little other than the date it was minted and a coin can rarely be called unique. Because of this a medal has added value by way of it's recipient and thus the condition thereof becomes a secondary consideration.

Basically they are two very different animals!!

[Old Owl]

By the By keep wire wool etc well away from medals as they will end up scratched to Bug**ry particularly so for silver ones. AS for my varnished plaque I used "jelly" paintstripper with cotton buds which lossened the varnish which was wiped off with a rag and then washed under a tap. Thoroughly dried and surprisingly there seems to be no ill affect on the underlying patina (I tried an area on the back of the plaque first). I thought it would look like polished brass.

Excellent result, I shall keep this in mind if I ever come across a plaque which has been varnished. I must admit that I would have thought that the plaque's original finish would have disappeared via the stripper--so good news there!!

I have done a similar process with medals that have been lacquered--but of course the lacquer had been applied by a well known London dealer who had already polished the medals prior to applying the lacquer and had hence removed any trace of the original patina!!

[Arnhem44]

Coin collectors are notoriously fussy about condition and probably quite rightly so, as condition is about the only thing that a coin has going for it, other than it's monetary value(I am sure that others may disagree with this statement!!). However a named medal is unique and as such can be researched, a coin on the other hand can tell you very little other than the date it was minted and a coin can rarely be called unique. Because of this a medal has added value by way of it's recipient and thus the condition thereof becomes a secondary consideration.

Basically they are two very different animals!!

A recipient's name on any medal will always increase the value and medal value will vary depending on who and what the recipient has done or what can be found out about them even if the medal is dirty.The vast majority of medals to be found for sale are coming on the market in an untouched condition.I think for most people selling medals they leave it up to the new custodian of the medal to decide for themselves as whether to cleanse them or not.Will they devalue if there cleaned and resold later?,no they won't if cleaned correctly but in my view they may not appeal to everyone the same as as untouched example may not appeal to others so it's a matter of choice for an individual.

Regards

Brendan

[welshdoc]

Remember before trying to clean any medal or plaque do a trial run to ensure no major damage will be caused by your action. I once tried pure ammonia on a coin and some acids to see if they were ok to clean stars = no way unless you like pink medals. .

[Staffsyeoman]

Back at the core of the question.... does cleaning devalue medals? I'd say no - unless they fall inot the category in catalogues as 'polished' - virtually all the raised details gone.

[Cossack Wolf]

I don't think it would necessarily affect the value as it is clear we all have different opinions on whether to polish/ clean or not to so probably as buyers we would just buy because we want them regardless of being cleaned or not! In regard to patina, I have a set of WWI Imperial Russian medals of which 3 are silver - they have over the years (before I got them) not been touched at all & have turned a wonderful deep colour so I wouldn't dream of cleaning those. If a medal has staining or rust or corrosion then I think there is a very good case for cleaning it & would then presume it would increase the value as the medal would then be in a far better condition.

regards....Andy

[coldstreampaul]

This is an interesting thread with good opinions for "clean or not clean"

I inherited my Fathers and recently polished them, he was a Guardsman so he probably would have done this himself!

Because I would never part with them I just like them to look "polished"

I have other medals that I have purchased but with these I have kept them as I found them.

Cheers

Paul