'ats, Gorblimey.

[Stoppage Drill]

Was the practice of removing the wire crown stiffener from the British Service Dress cap primarily a response to the introduction of steel helmets, with the corresponding need to be able to fold the cap up and stow it away in a small pack when not being worn ?

The French Calot and the US Overseas Cap were introduced for this reason, replacing the kepi and the M1911 Campaign Hat respectively, so this adaptation of the British SD hat seems to have been for the same practical reason. Were formal orders given requiring (or allowing) such a modification, or was it just one of those things that grew up out of necessity and was tolerated ?

I recall reading somewhere that the disc of the stiffened hat was particularly noticeable when seen from above by enemy airmen, and that the wire started to be removed for this reason some time before tin hats were introduced. This doesn't sound too convincing to me. The rim of a Brodie must be of similar diameter and would have almost the same aspect when viewed from a height.

[centurion]

Its possible to find photos of groups of British soldiers with their caps with almost every possible variation of stiffness in the same group. Somewhere I've seen that stiffeners began to be removed when trenches became the norm as stiff crowns were more easily caught when ducking into dug outs or negotiating narrow sections.

[centurion]

This photo of allied officers possibly C late 1915 shows different styles on British caps

[Steven Broomfield]

I think I read somewhere that the wire stiffening was also removed as it complicated matters somewhat if the wire was driven into the skull when hit by shrapnel. Of course, that falls into the great GWF category of "I think I remember but I can't remember where", so probably best discounted.

[trenchtrotter]

I assume your talking about the later caps as those with stiff peaks as worn 1914 / 1916 could be flattened but not really folded even if the wire stiffner removed.

The two later versions with soft stitched peaks could however and were of course introduced for the reasons you mention.

Re removal of the wire yes for reducing silhouette, yes for fashion / individuality. Now re officers caps.....fashion and functionality.

TT

[seaforths]

I think I read somewhere that the wire stiffening was also removed as it complicated matters somewhat if the wire was driven into the skull when hit by shrapnel. Of course, that falls into the great GWF category of "I think I remember but I can't remember where", so probably best discounted.

I sometimes post in a similar fashion. I hadn't realised how much it was frowned upon until I read another recent thread in which that came out as an annoyance factor for some. The reason I do it, is in the hope that someone else might spot it who has read the same information and hopefully, they might just remember the where and when that escapes me at that moment.

Edit: Whoops missed the end of my post off! I get the impression that while in the trenches, they did as they saw fit with their headgear and photographs of weird and wonderful hats abound from what I have seen, even furry ones. I have to say it looks more like grass or something on the photograph I have and I understand there was a heated discussion on those mohecan appearances not so long ago...can't remember where

[centurion]

I sometimes post in a similar fashion. I hadn't realised how much it was frowned upon until I read another recent thread in which that came out as an annoyance factor for some. The reason I do it, is in the hope that someone else might spot it who has read the same information and hopefully, they might just remember the where and when that escapes me at that moment.

This is a discussion forum after all and many short items are like bits of conversations in a club (or pub or round a dinner table) and you wouldn't normally expect to always have to remember exactly where you had read something and in those circumstance some one else might say "yes I remember reading/hearing that too" However there is always the boring dinner guest who always demands proof of everything - fair game to return the complement in those cases, Now if you're writing a serious essay that's different. Last month I was stuck for a couple of days because I couldn't remember where I'd read something I wanted to quote. As my collection of WW1 or WW1 related books now tops 500 I despaired of finding it (I found it serendipitously in a book that is about 97% not about WW1!).

[seaforths]

How many books? I have trouble keeping track of information in around 1/5th of that! I did experiment a little while back with one of my smaller books by scanning it and running OCR and was pleased with the result of having a book I use frequently now searchable. I was also concerned about the age of it and the effect of said frequent use. That is also a concern with some of my other books but the size of them is putting me off at the moment.

Thinking back to the other thread on German uniform and headwear, out of all the reasons given in the OP by Mr Drill, the folding and storage makes the most sense. Reading 8th Seaforth WDs the other night (looking for something else), a marching order stated helmets will not be worn and all men will wear Glengarries on the march (I wondered why not Balmorals?). However, given the ease feldmutz, Glengarry & Balmoral could be folded/rolled and stored in a pocket, the service issue cap must have been a nightmare to store and keep in shape at the same time. Eventually, the wire would, I suspect give out anyway, snap and protrude through the material (at which point it was probably removed).

[tocemma]

The removal of the wire from Service Dress caps was authorised by General Routine Order in the first few months of the war. Therefore it was nothing to do with shrapnel helmets which did not appear until much later. As the OP States this was indeed to do with reflection of light from the tops of the caps. I will have to look out the original GRO but I'm pretty sure that aircraft weren't mentioned, it was a general observation that these caps reflected light.

The first SD cap to be manufactured without 'stiffening' wire was the Winter Service Dress cap, the Gor Blimey, which was issued from the winter of 14-15 onwards. Note that I am excluding Scottish headress here which was by construction not fitted with wire stiffening.

The soft Service Dress cap, the trench cap, which could easily folded and stowed away, was issued from the early part of 1916, in fact prior to the shrapnel helmet becoming a universal issue to all ranks. The Battle of the Somme is usually stated to be the first major engagement were helmets were universal issue.

On active service, except where position or duties required a more formal appearance such as MPs, then most wore either issued soft caps or caps where the wires had been removed.

In my experience as a collector, it is not unknown to see a soft cap made without stiffening, to be 'retro-fitted' with a cap wire to give a more formal look.

Here's a nice photo of the Prince of Wales in a Grenadier Guards Officers' Gor Blimey, seemingly free of wires!

Regards

Tocemma

[Stoppage Drill]

Thanks TM.

I had always associated the slang term "Gorblimey" with the soft stitched peak, ear flapped ORs titfer. You infer that it was a general term relating to all soft top-ped caps

The officers hat, even without wire, retained a stiffened peak. What exactly was the intended purpose of the extra cloth chinstrap which shows so clearly in the snap of "David" ? This is seen frequently, and must be there for a practical purpose, yet I have never seen a picture of it worn under the chin.

[centurion]

The term pre dates WW1 and was a cockney term for peaked caps worn at a jaunty angle The song modified and made famous by the late Mr Donnegan started life as a children's song before WW1

" My old man's a fireman

Now what do you think of that

He wears Gorblimey trousers

And a little Gorblimey hat

My old man's a fireman

On an Elder Dempster Boat"

Was still being sung in playgrounds in the 1950s before Lonny took it up, certainly in the NW as I can bear witness to

Brophy and Partridge ascribe its army use as beginning with the removal of the wire stiffener from the field service cap but imply that it has particular relevance to the soft cap with ear flaps

[scottmarchand]

Thank you Centurion! a much more likely explanation than the routine 'CSM exclaimed 'gorblimey' upon frst seeing them. I interpret 'gorblimey trosers/cap' to mean any loose fitted or ill shaped workmans clothes of the era versus the tightly tailored form fitted dress of the white collar worker? Would this be accurate? It was then a naturaly applied appellation to a similar droopy army cap?

[centurion]

Apparently pre war a Gorblimey hat or trousers was a term of derision and I would agree does sound a more likely source than the 'conventional' CSM explanation. [ I have this mental picture of Dick van Dyke in a sergeant's uniform exclaiming "Gorblimey Captoin Poppins"]

[tocemma]

Gor Blimey was also applied to loudly coloured and checked 'street' clothing pre-war. Edwardian Bling....

I wasn't implying that it was used for all soft caps however, it seems to have been confined to the Winter Service Dress cap (with the ear flaps etc,) and the privately acquired Officers' versions. The cloth strap is the one intended to fasten the ear flaps of the Officer version. It is pretty much for appearance being pretty useless for it's intended purpose. I doubt they were ever worn in this way. The leather chin strap is for reasons of continuity of course.

Oddly enough it is rare to find a contemporary reference to the winter caps as 'Gor Blimey' I have only found one wartime reference in a cartoon published in the Fifth Glosters Gazette. If anyone else can find one I would be very interested to see it.

Regards

Tocemma

[Stoppage Drill]

When that lousy war was over . . . . . it seems that the OR's cap reverted to it's wire stiffened state, but the officers cap remained soft. Pourquoi ?

The ORs SD cap more or less disappeared when the khaki split-**** was introduced, circa 1937, though Guards retained it until the post WW2 introduction of berets.

Military Police continued with it(with red cover) until they adopted their cherry red beret in the 1970s (?), and MPSC still wear it to this day, as do mounted troops - Household Cavalry and Kings Troop. All these latter, stiffened.

[David B]

In a much later period of course, but the reason wires were taken out and caps bent out of shape was simply to make look like you had been in the service for a respectable amount of time,

and not just a raw recruit. In other words pure ego. A stiffened cap was always kept for parade purposes.

[tocemma]

Blanco and polishing of brass started again as soon as the firing stopped. I once had a South Staffs SD jacket in my collection that had been prepped for an inspection by HM. It's a wonder the owner could breathe, it had been tailored to the point of hypoxia!

The Service Dress uniform was redesigned in the immediate post war period to a much smarter fit. The re-introduction of a stiffened cap was inevitable. 1921 I believe.

The Coldstream Guards and possibly other Guards Regiments retained the soft Service Dress cap until the end of WW2. Here is a photo of Coldstreamers taken in France in 1939/40. Note the use of the gilding metal shoulder titles on Battledress too.

This is an almost unchanged version of the Trench Cap as introduced in 1916, though being Guardsmen they do appear to have the cap wire once again. In and out like a fiddler's elbow....

Regards

Tocemma

[centurion]

Blanco and polishing of brass started again as soon as the firing stopped. I once had a South Staffs SD jacket in my collection that had been prepped for an inspection by HM. It's a wonder the owner could breathe, it had been tailored to the point of hypoxia!

The Service Dress uniform was redesigned in the immediate post war period to a much smarter fit. The re-introduction of a stiffened cap was inevitable. 1921 I believe.

The Coldstream Guards and possibly other Guards Regiments retained the soft Service Dress cap until the end of WW2. Here is a photo of Coldstreamers taken in France in 1939/40. Note the use of the gilding metal shoulder titles on Battledress too.

image.jpg

This is an almost unchanged version of the Trench Cap as introduced in 1916, though being Guardsmen they do appear to have the cap wire once again. In and out like a fiddler's elbow....

Regards

Tocemma

Gerald Kersh in his book They Die with Their Boots Clean (1942) describes the efforts the Coldstreamers went to to remain 'smart' even under the most trying of combat situations

[paulgranger]

Chris Baker's new book 'The Truce' (received today, glanced through only) contains an excellent photo of 4 men taking part in a practice attack in 1915. One is wearing a standard SD cap with stiffener. The other three are wearing soft caps, two with earflaps, so civilian-like, you'd think they were stalking deer, if it wasn't for the fixed bayonets.

[Steven Broomfield]

Jolly unsporting, bayonetting a deer.

[centurion]

Jolly unsporting, bayonetting a deer.

Dunno you've got to run bloody fast to catch it

[Stoppage Drill]

The Coldstream Guards and possibly other Guards Regiments retained the soft Service Dress cap until the end of WW2. Here is a photo of Coldstreamers taken in France in 1939/40. Note the use of the gilding metal shoulder titles on Battledress too.

This is an almost unchanged version of the Trench Cap as introduced in 1916, though being Guardsmen they do appear to have the cap wire once again. In and out like a fiddler's elbow....

Regards

Tocemma

Looks like they are devoid of wire to me.

Here is an almost contemporary snap of a Welsh Guardsman.

It was taken in Paris in November 1939 when 1 Welsh Guards were en route from Gibraltar to Arras. The hat is well shaped, but certainly seems to be wireless, and with a soft stitched peak. Service Dress and puttees too ! Webbing is 37 Patt, although the Warrant Officer has a revolver holster and has fastened a compass/pistol ammunition pouch above it. The usual 37 Patt ammo pouches can be more clearly seen on the men in the background. Cloth shoulder titles too, unlike the Coldstreamers in your pic.

[centurion]

Looks like they are devoid of wire to me.

Here is an almost contemporary snap of a Welsh Guardsman.

Paris.jpg

It was taken in Paris in November 1939 when 1 Welsh Guards were en route from Gibraltar to Arras. The hat is well shaped, but certainly seems to be wireless, and with a soft stitched peak. Service Dress and puttees too ! Webbing is 37 Patt, although the Warrant Officer has a revolver holster and has fastened a compass/pistol ammunition pouch above it. The usual 37 Patt ammo pouches can be more clearly seen on the men in the background. Cloth shoulder titles too, unlike the Coldstreamers in your pic.

Wireless hats - just shows how far ahead of the curve they were ! Is that a bluetooth I can see in his grin?

[Stoppage Drill]

Yes - it is the rather dirty grin of a chap who is delighted to meet the mademoiselles again, isn't it ?

Here's Kenneally getting his VC in 1943 from another Mick (!) - plenty of wire here !

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/v-c-for-a-hero

[tocemma]

Alex presented him with a VC ribbon...must have been wartime austerity.

The wired Sgt. is wearing a 1921 pattern (sometimes called 22 Pattern, but pattern sealed in 1921) and with the peak heavily set up. The caps shown in the Paris photo and the earlier Coldstream photo is of the stitched peak 'Trench Cap' style which seems to have continued in use with the Coldstream Guards and other Guards Regiments, see the photo below of a Scots Guards NCO.

This chap has a very good example of what I'm referring to. Soft stitched peak and with the stiffening wire in the crown. Sometimes the vertical spring steel at the front of the cap (behind the badge area) was removed just leaving the crown wire. I've had several of these over the years. They are pretty well identical to WW1 issue caps, though the colour is a little different as are details of the liners. They are sometimes passed of as earlier caps by swapping the chinstrap for a thinner type. The leather chin straps from ATS caps were sometimes used for this. Of course now all these caps are collectable in their own right and too valuable for this to happen nowadays! This is not the same as Sgt. Kenneally's cap.

Regards

Tocemma