Sidearm Posted 11 September , 2014 Share Posted 11 September , 2014 Lincolnshire County Council has today announced that the Mark IV Female at the Museum of Lincolnshire Life is not "Flirt II". See http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/news/the-mystery-of-the-tank-that-came-back-from-the-war/123304.article. It is in fact 2743, a tank that served with 12 Company, D Battalion up to 22 August 1917 and was later the presentation tank at Gloucester. This announcement is based on around six or seven years research that I undertook and which led to me proposing that the tank was 2743 in October 2013. This was confirmed around a month later when my friend Richard Pullen found an overpainted partial serial number inside the tank. I am using the announcement to appeal for more information about the tank to come forward, and for this reason I don't propose providing any more details of the tank's history (which with the exception of a few short gaps I know in detail) for fear of influencing those who may yet have more information to offer. More details will be provided in the near future. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 September , 2014 Share Posted 11 September , 2014 For goodness sake if you know the history " with the exception of a few short gaps" then give it out. All you are doing is discouraging potential providers of information who may fear that they will be told "I already knew that". We're (at least most of us) mature and rational adults and if anyone has information that disagrees with what you have unearthed I'm sure that they will say so in a reasoned and polite manner (which may be helpful) and it makes it easier if people know where the gaps are as they might be able to fill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 11 September , 2014 Share Posted 11 September , 2014 Well done Gwyn and Richard. I look forward to hearing the full story in due course once you have hopefully filled in the few short gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 11 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2014 For goodness sake if you know the history " with the exception of a few short gaps" then give it out. All you are doing is discouraging potential providers of information who may fear that they will be told "I already knew that". We're (at least most of us) mature and rational adults and if anyone has information that disagrees with what you have unearthed I'm sure that they will say so in a reasoned and polite manner (which may be helpful) and it makes it easier if people know where the gaps are as they might be able to fill them. We shall give it out Centurion, but not yet. What I am afraid of is making a statement that will suggest to someone what I want to hear. I don't want "false memories". I am certainly not going to say to someone "I already knew that (go away, don't bother me)" because I too am a mature and rational adult, and a polite one to boot. I am interested in receiving ALL information, including that which might confirm what I already know. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 11 September , 2014 Share Posted 11 September , 2014 We shall give it out Centurion, but not yet. What I am afraid of is making a statement that will suggest to someone what I want to hear. I don't want "false memories". I am certainly not going to say to someone "I already knew that (go away, don't bother me)" because I too am a mature and rational adult, and a polite one to boot. I am interested in receiving ALL information, including that which might confirm what I already know. Gwyn Gosh is there anyone around today who will have any memories of that tank let alone false ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 11 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2014 Yes. Not in 1917 admittedly but the tank did exist in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and even more recently. And people may have heard older generations talk about it and remember what they said. That's valuable information Centurion, and I'm not risking compromising the chance of capturing it just to satisy your curiosity a little earlier than it'll be satisfied anyway. When we provide more information then that will allow some more precisely targeted enquiries. If you don't like the approach I'm taking, which has already been agreed with the Museum of Lincolnshire Life, then that's your problem and not mine. I will not respond to any more posts on this theme. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 September , 2014 Share Posted 12 September , 2014 I'm with Gwyn on this one. It has been made clear what the true identity of the tank is, a major step forward in anyone's view, and with that in mind, what is now needed is to tie up any of the loose ends before the 'final publication'. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 12 September , 2014 Share Posted 12 September , 2014 For goodness sake if you know the history " with the exception of a few short gaps" then give it out. All you are doing is discouraging potential providers of information who may fear that they will be told "I already knew that". We're (at least most of us) mature and rational adults and if anyone has information that disagrees with what you have unearthed I'm sure that they will say so in a reasoned and polite manner (which may be helpful) and it makes it easier if people know where the gaps are as they might be able to fill them. We knew 2 weeks ago, the information boards beside the tank told us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 12 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2014 Yes, that was a little unfortunate but I think the Museum were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They had a budget to do an interactive interpretation app (or whatever you call these things, I'm a Luddite) and knowing what I'd told them they knew that the tank wouldn't be 'Flirt II' much longer. So they could either spend the money on interpreting 'Flirt II' and have to redo it or interpret 'Daphne' and hope no-one would notice until the announcement could be made. There are a few messages on TripAdvisor talking about a visit to see the tank 'Daphne' as a result, but what they don't do is link it with 2743 or Gloucester, and that's the bit that's new. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 September , 2014 Share Posted 12 September , 2014 Yes, that was a little unfortunate but I think the Museum were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They had a budget to do an interactive interpretation app (or whatever you call these things, I'm a Luddite) and knowing what I'd told them they knew that the tank wouldn't be 'Flirt II' much longer. So they could either spend the money on interpreting 'Flirt II' and have to redo it or interpret 'Daphne' and hope no-one would notice until the announcement could be made. There are a few messages on TripAdvisor talking about a visit to see the tank 'Daphne' as a result, but what they don't do is link it with 2743 or Gloucester, and that's the bit that's new. Gwyn But until you give us some detail you must expect this sort of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 13 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2014 But until you give us some detail you must expect this sort of thing Wow! That's a non sequitur if ever I saw one. I am preparing an article for publication on the tank's history and I have a peer reviewed paper accepted for the annual "Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society" for publication next March explaining the identification and also covering some of the history. I have three articles for publication in "Tankette" explaining Mark IV serial numbers and how these relate to production, with a fourth to be submitted shortly, that was a fundamental piece of research before I could make progress on the identification. I am not going to fritter away that much research in a post on this or any other Forum, and it's unrealistic for you to expect it to be in a simple press release. There are also good reasons for not doing so as set out above. You have provided no good reason why I should release this information now except to satisfy your own curiosity. Centurion, on the 8th May this year you gave a lecture to the Friends of the Lincoln Tank on your research into the tank bank in America and Canada. I am trying to arrange to give a similar lecture on my research. I don't recall you publishing your research on this Forum and I don't expect you to if you don't want to. I have the same right. Now stop this constant needling, which is not a reasonable, mature or polite way to conduct a discussion on this or any other forum. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 13 September , 2014 Share Posted 13 September , 2014 It is a very nice tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 13 September , 2014 Share Posted 13 September , 2014 Gwyn I hope you are successful in your attempts to undertake a lecture, would it be in Lincoln? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 13 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 September , 2014 Gwyn I hope you are successful in your attempts to undertake a lecture, would it be in Lincoln? I'm in discussion with the gentleman who organises the speakers for the Friends of the Lincoln Tank and I'm sure we can arrange something there. Date to be confirmed. If there is interest elsewhere (Gloucester for example) I'm sure that could also be arranged. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 September , 2014 Share Posted 14 September , 2014 It is a very nice tank. Sounds like it is and I look forward to spending a day travelling over from Oxford (there next three weeks for research) to see it! I am preparing an article for publication on the tank's history and I have a peer reviewed paper accepted for the annual "Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society" for publication ... Gwynn, I am willing to bet that you and I are the only ones on GWF to have papers in TBGAS! Well done! I am no longer a member but I'll cadge a copy of one of my mates 'over there'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 14 September , 2014 Share Posted 14 September , 2014 It's a nice little museum, slightly embarrassed I'm only 25 minutes away and that was my first visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 14 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2014 Gwyn, I am willing to bet that you and I are the only ones on GWF to have papers in TBGAS! Well done! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 14 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2014 It's a nice little museum, slightly embarrassed I'm only 25 minutes away and that was my first visit. It takes me 25 minutes to get to Tenby... Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 18 September , 2014 Share Posted 18 September , 2014 For those who would like a picture: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 19 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 September , 2014 Thanks for posting, WillyW. I think the path seen on the right of the picture is the one that runs across the Park leading from the Trier Way entrance towards Spa Road. As I see you're from Gloucester, and I'm not, do you agree or have I got my geography wrong? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 19 September , 2014 Share Posted 19 September , 2014 I think you're right. As far as I can make out the photograph was taken as per the Google Earth shot below. I tried to do a 'street view' shot but there are too many trees bordering the park now. You can even see the triangle of grass in the foreground of the postcard, against which the hardstanding for the tank is resting. By the way - I'm in TBGAS myself! I look forward to the next edition of 'Transactions' with your article. It'll make a change from Bronze Age pottery and medieval burials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 20 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2014 Many thanks. Good to have that confirmation. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 7 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2014 In case anyone is interested, I shall be speaking on this in Gloucester on 22 November: http://www.soglos.com/culture/37668/The-Surprising-History-of-Gloucester%E2%80%99s-Great-War-Tank-talk Sorry, I don't have any free tickets and I don't get a cut either, just expenses. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 8 November , 2014 Share Posted 8 November , 2014 I wanted to go to that, but it clashes with the Guild of Battlefield Guides AGM that I'm committed to! Just my luck! I have publicised it with both the Civic Trust and the local WFA, though. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 8 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 November , 2014 Sorry to hear that Bob, but thanks for publicising it. An article about the tank is coming up in "Tracklink", the magazine of the Friends of the Tank Museum. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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