Book prices

[keithmroberts]

A response on one issue mentioned above. I sell a few surplus books on line, some collectable, some not, and by no means mostly related to our subject on the forum. I am well aware of companies trading on Amazon that run regular scans, and automatically undercut by 1p.

Anyone who plays the game suggested in an earlier post of reducing the price of a desired volume by listing it, would first have to register a s a seller, and would obviously run the risk of the copy that they listed first being snapped up. A couple of complaints of non performance from a new seller would I am sure see them barred forever very quickly.

Most of the companies that seem to use this software are bulk sellers, and tend to list books with standardised descriptions that tell you little. I'm always ready to pay a little more for a proper description of a volume,,

Keith

[Dust Jacket Collector]

Seaforth. Prickly! Moi! What I'm uneasy with is the implication that those of us who collect rare books are some kind of mega-rich misers who snaffle things away simply because they are rare. I've spent most of my life buying & reading books on WW1 & spent a considerable amount of time & energy promoting one particular aspect of that obsession to increase the knowledge of others.

With regard to prices, I think there has been an upward shift, but not excessively so. OK some dealers are asking crazy prices for books but they'll in all likelyhood be stuck with them for some considerable time. But there are some books that are so rare they may only appear on the market once every 5 or 10 years. Take for example Gardner's Mining memoir 'One Mole Rampant'. There are lots of people looking for this & when it comes up it's usually priced at around £250. Yes, that's a lot for a slim volume but what's a dealer to do? Price it at £50? It'll sell just as quickly either way but he'll be £200 down.

[Steven Broomfield]

As a friend of mine who runs an antiquarian book shop in Winchester pointed out to me, "You'll never get rich selling old books", and I suspect he wasn't wrong. I have certainly noticed I haven't become rich by buying them.

[seaforths]

Ok so Rascals Military Books might be a short-lived venture. On a more topic like note, there is a whole weird and wonderful vocabulary surrounding second hand books and sometimes, when I read some of the other stuff surrounding a book, I'm glad of a brief description. That's when I tend to use the 'ask the seller' button. I can ask my questions in plain language and hopefully get some plain language answers. I do understand some of the language used and how it can sometimes be used to baffle or mislead the unwary. I find most booksellers are obliging and if I'm not keen on the response, I will pass.

A book I was looking at recently 'archival repairs' to pages such and such to such and such. Something like that I find strange. Why don't they just say what's wrong with the pages and explain what they have done? If I was interested in getting it, I'd have to ask the questions. An 'archival repair' (to me) could mean anything; glue, sellotape, blutack. Obviously, it would affect the price of the book but unless the seller is quite clear on something like that, there is room for a misunderstanding on both sides. The buyer might be unhappy with the repair job, whereas the seller could take the stance of; I told you it was repaired - you didn't ask how.There seems to be two main camps on book sales. Those that give a brief description that tells little or nothing and those going to town on the full jargon. The ones that give a full and honest description in plain language are quite infrequent.

There also seems to be a whole language surrounding the status of books 'scarce', 'rare', 'collectable' ... I can understand how these would cost more but the 'more' seems to be getting an awful lot more. The book I was originally raising, when all said and done, is just over 60 pages (ok the font is very small), with photographs (that are not particularly good quality) covers made of stout card and a cloth spine and a price tag of £265. I am particularly sentimental over this book but sentiment alone does not drive me to purchase, when it comes to WW1 books, it has to work for me on more than one level. I've a couple of books that do not work for me as enjoyable reads but in terms of research and information they were a great little buy (if I can call it that, I traded them for others I didn't want).

I find the reasons folks buy/read certain books quite fascinating and much of the information in the posts is interesting. Admitting the mistakes too, I think most folks have done that in some way, shape or form over a book. It can be down to a seller who is a little economical with the truth coupled with a bit of naivety on the buyers part. Mistakes are learning points and hopefully, reflecting with a sense of humour takes out the sting, if there was one. However, I really can't get my head around someone defending astronomically high book prices on the grounds of being scarce/rare/collectable.

I suppose for booksellers who deal in large quantities of books from house clearances etc., the software saves them time hunting for prices. That sellers are willing to drop their prices (sometimes considerably) is also encouraging. And for what it's worth, I was tipped off on my purchase of the said book and still immensely grateful for that but if the seller had been asking £265 I would be thinking - jog on.

[seaforths]

Seaforth. Prickly! Moi! What I'm uneasy with is the implication that those of us who collect rare books are some kind of mega-rich misers who snaffle things away simply because they are rare. I've spent most of my life buying & reading books on WW1 & spent a considerable amount of time & energy promoting one particular aspect of that obsession to increase the knowledge of others.

With regard to prices, I think there has been an upward shift, but not excessively so. OK some dealers are asking crazy prices for books but they'll in all likelyhood be stuck with them for some considerable time. But there are some books that are so rare they may only appear on the market once every 5 or 10 years. Take for example Gardner's Mining memoir 'One Mole Rampant'. There are lots of people looking for this & when it comes up it's usually priced at around £250. Yes, that's a lot for a slim volume but what's a dealer to do? Price it at £50? It'll sell just as quickly either way but he'll be £200 down.

Vous!! I wasn't taking a pop at collectors (honest guv). As I've just said in a previous, I'm struggling to get my head around it and yes, it has to do with what the seller/dealer has paid for it in order to sell it on (they're not running a charity). Nor, by the way, is it a pop at Turner Donovan books, whom I have bought from in the past but I still think it's madness. I don't think collectors have bottomless pits of money, well some might - not Steven though but if I was a collector and saw something I wanted more, I might be tempted to re-adjust my collection to accommodate it.

I think in the world of collectors putting reprints and ebook versions online would do little to devalue your collection, I might be thinking about this in the wrong way but surely, it would be better for collectors as the demand for those who want to access the information as opposed to owning a rare/scarce/collectible book would decrease and the price would be lower. Or, is this wrong? Do specialist booksellers know for example, how many copies of a book exist? Say for example 'One Mole Rampart' - is it just that there are only n amount of them left?

I'm always receiving an education in books and prices. I have been and still am in the process of getting rid of my children's books. We reached an agreement that they select a few of their favourites to keep for posterity. Now I am recycling them at a (what might be a well known) second hand book shop. They credit me with money in one of their accounts for books I take in. I am constantly surprised at the prices I am getting for these books (many of which are in excellent condition, despite being 20 years old). I also recycle some of my own books there, mainly paperbacks. On looking at some of the prices of children's books I now realise that some of those must have a collectors market of their own. I have, I think, about £200 sitting in credit on my account and I've seen some books (WW1) that I thought about buying but the price has put me off - there is sometimes a compulsion to make a purchase (because it feels as though you are not actually spending anything) and so I do talk myself out of it.

As you know, I am not a discerning book collector, I just have a collection of books and there is a difference. Here's another piece of instanity (as I see it). I was looking for aerial photographs of southern Germany from WW1. I know it was targetted during the war - factories etc. therefore, in my logic, there must have been aerial reconnaisance. I found what was either a single album for sale on a few sites in different countries (South Africa and Italy spring to mind) or there were around three copies of this collection. How much? oh between 6 and 7 1/2 thousand euros. I was amazed (right after my laughter died down).

It is nice that you can come and talk about the books and explain a little about the prices to the un-educated such as myself. I would imagine that there are a few people who want these books and rareties for the information they hold that has absolutely nothing to do with owning a rare book and being a collector. I do use the archive.org site a lot to access information from books but I have to admit, I have to transfer them to a reader to read them as a book. I cannot read a book on a computer screen - I wish I could. Those books also have their pitfalls that fit into the same cateory as reprints but at least they are free to download.

[auchonvillerssomme]

A response on one issue mentioned above. I sell a few surplus books on line, some collectable, some not, and by no means mostly related to our subject on the forum. I am well aware of companies trading on Amazon that run regular scans, and automatically undercut by 1p.

Anyone who plays the game suggested in an earlier post of reducing the price of a desired volume by listing it, would first have to register a s a seller, and would obviously run the risk of the copy that they listed first being snapped up. A couple of complaints of non performance from a new seller would I am sure see them barred forever very quickly.

Most of the companies that seem to use this software are bulk sellers, and tend to list books with standardised descriptions that tell you little. I'm always ready to pay a little more for a proper description of a volume,,

Keith

Keith I buy books on a very regular basis from Abe and Amazon and generally never pick the lowest price on the list, I go for the third or fourth. I think I do this because there is a tiny niggle that suggests cheapest is cheap for a reason, and generally those lower down haven't gone to the trouble of a decent description. I have also been caught out with the lower price seller sending a revised postage because of weight that sends it way up the pricing.

Mick

[Staffsyeoman]

Recently, not being an extensive reader of fiction, I read a spy novel by Alan Furst, and found it convicing and well researched, so I thought I would get his back catalogue. I always tend to buy fiction second hand, but for some strange reason his books rarely show up in charity shops. So I go to Amazon.. there are copies for 0.01 pence for most of his cannon, so I put them in the basket and find most are the same seller. So the book is a penny, postage £2.80 - standard Amazon rate. So I go to the basket. Do they reduce postage for multiple orders? Do they heck. So twelve pence worth of (12) paperback books cost thirty pounds to post? I think not. So I cancelled the order.

[seaforths]

Keith I buy books on a very regular basis from Abe and Amazon and generally never pick the lowest price on the list, I go for the third or fourth. I think I do this because there is a tiny niggle that suggests cheapest is cheap for a reason, and generally those lower down haven't gone to the trouble of a decent description. I have also been caught out with the lower price seller sending a revised postage because of weight that sends it way up the pricing.

Mick

Is that new or second hand books? I only ask because new should be new and undamaged, un-read etc. I'd be pretty annoyed if it didn't arrive as such. I did have one, a few years ago, that was new and when I opened it, a clump of pages fell out. I have to say, the seller replaced it very promptly and told me not to bother returning the other one, which I donated to a charity shop. They were the cheapest at the time.

Adverse reviews and criticism of a book must surely affect the price too? I'm specifically thinking about a book I was considering buying but I noticed it was attracting a lot of negative comments both on the forum and in general outside the forum. Now, I believe the price has dropped dramatically.

[Dust Jacket Collector]

Seaforths. I suppose rare books are like rare anything else - if there are enough people after them then the price will soar.

There were about 200 copies of 'One Mole Rampant' printed although I doubt anything like that number survive. Just be grateful that these books aren't being sought after by collectors of Modern First Editions. They're prepared to pay over £30,000 for a copy of 'Casino Royale', a book far more frequently encountered than the Gardner.

With regard to dealers descriptions, I always bear in mind the definition given by Driff, a one time book runner.

'Very Good means Not Very Good & Good means no bloody good at all!'

[seaforths]

Seaforths. I suppose rare books are like rare anything else - if there are enough people after them then the price will soar.

There were about 200 copies of 'One Mole Rampant' printed although I doubt anything like that number survive. Just be grateful that these books aren't being sought after by collectors of Modern First Editions. They're prepared to pay over £30,000 for a copy of 'Casino Royale', a book far more frequently encountered than the Gardner.

With regard to dealers descriptions, I always bear in mind the definition given by Driff, a one time book runner.

'Very Good means Not Very Good & Good means no bloody good at all!'

Thank you DJC

Good heavens! I'm not sure why someone would spend that much on a book! I can understand paintings to some extent but at least you and everyone that visits you can admire it (or not) on your wall and you can see it every day, but a book. I do see those emails from Abe about the most expensive book sold etc. but I just delete them. I've also seen some Rackham illustrated books in the place I frequent and thought for goodness sake, you could buy an expensive car for that or put a very large deposit on a house.

I suppose that some books might be traceable via the publisher and how many copies were originally printed etc. and as you say, would not equate to how many survive of that number. Similarly, where special numbered editions were printed, traceable but I guess in those cases, they are published with collectors in mind. Also, I get the feeling that what I call a lot of money for a book, to a collector, might mean next to nothing, when you are comparing it to other books. So what does a collector do with their very expensive books? Do you read them? Put them on the wall? I am trying very hard to understand what it is about a single book or collection of them, that could command such high prices.

I might have a head full of misconceptions (so don't laugh too much) about collectors but is it like a collector of vintage cars? Just enjoy the kudos of owning it but they sit there and never gets taken out? Or, a collector of aged wines that will never drink them?

I have to say, very honestly, I wouldn't buy my own book again at the asking price for it now (and mine is signed). Although I love having it, and recognise it is special because there is a family connection to it and its content, it has to work for a living and I'm frequently checking or looking for information in it. It still seems like an outrageous amount of money and as for Casino Royale...I might look for a 'working copy' which I presume means clinging to itself by a few strands and looking like it was in the Arnside fire

[Black Maria]

'Very Good means Not Very Good & Good means no bloody good at all!'

I don't usually return books that I have purchased, but not long ago I bought a memoir that was described as " near fine ", but when it arrived it had a stain on the bottom of the page

block which had leached through and stained about 130 pages of the 360 page book, it would have saved us both hassle if the seller had been truthful and given a proper description

of the books condition.

[Dust Jacket Collector]

Why do we collect? I'm not sure any of us could give a really convincing reason. For me it's having the book as it originally appeared which I feel brings me closer to the author. I enjoy reading War poetry but it somehow feels different when I'm reading from the 1st edition. It's a completely intangible thing that it's virtually impossible to convey to a non-collector. Maybe we're all just a little mad.

What do I do with them - I read them and put them on the shelf & occassionally get them out and look at them again. Sad isn't it? But I wouldn't part with them for all the tea in China.

[seaforths]

I don't usually return books that I have purchased, but not long ago I bought a memoir that was described as " near fine ", but when it arrived it had a stain on the bottom of the page

block which had leached through and stained about 130 pages of the 360 page book, it would have saved us both hassle if the seller had been truthful and given a proper description

of the books condition.

That's exactly the type of vocabulary and description that completely bamboozles me and results in a list of direct questions. I did once ask for a partial refund on a book I had asked about regarding the condition, one of my questons was regards marking in pen/pencil, stains etc. I found a number of underlinings and markings on some of the pages in coloured pencil. He said that he couldn't be expected to check every page of every book he sold, and begrudgingly, gave me an acceptable refund. I discovered that although it was in coloured pencil, it did rub out very easily. However, the point was, I asked the question and should have had an honest and accurate response. It's different if you are buying in a shop, you can see for yourself the condition of the book and make a decision based on what you see, as to whether you will make a purchase. Buying online seems to be a different kettle of fish altogether and some element of luck and trust involved. The vocabulary seems to have different meanings to the buyer/seller.

DJC's quote is quite apt and probably quite accurate too.

[MartH]

First thing to be aware is that certain books are probable the most valuable artifacts in the world, more than paintings, just google Codex Sinaiticus or the Benedictional of St Aethwold, ignore what they say about the transfer value at today's prices, but find out much an Old Master or a Van Gogh cost when the British Museum Library obtained them, and then think how many hundreds of paintings you could have got at the time with the money.

I am often reminded the trouble Errol Flynn got into taking a copy of A Christmas Carol from William Randolph Hearst's library. It was very special then being the first modern printed book.

As I have posted several times on this forum (from the library of Congress), everything has a monetary value it is simply what somebody prepared to pay for it. Note it is not the offer price, but what people pay.

With respect to Great War books we are to be thankful that they are not fashionable to collect compared to say modern first editions. I have second hand book catalogues going back to my earliest days of buying books, so I can reference what prices where other the last 30 years. To be valuable a book has to fulfill 3 criteria, 1) they are know and perceived to be scarce, 2) they are wanted by more than one person, and 3) who have, and are prepared to spend money on them. If it;s not all 3 criteria are satisfied, the price is not high, and you get a bargain.

My particular area of interest is Official Histories, and not just Great War ones. Particular OH's have risen in price during anniversaries, but I think that is due to increased demand, nor has the price has not declined after the anniversary. The reprints have driven down the prices of all but the rare ones, but now the prices is rising, I often wonder if it is because the reprints have black and white not colour maps. The really rare OH's where there are a handful copies exist continue to rise to mind numbing numbers.

The internet has changed finding rare books, since a record of prices exist for non specialist sellers, and they try and get it, it also has driven down the price of some, how can it be rare and be £1,500, when there are 8 copies for sale worldwide (this was a pre war OH)?

I admire the work Tom and others go to find sought after books, I could not do it.

I do own something really special and valuable, it lives in a bank vault, and has been lent out for exhibitions, it was also one of John Terraines favorite books. I was lucky to find it, but I have spent 20 years researching it, explaining what it is, without all that work people would not know what it is.

When buying from Amazon read and understand what the descriptions mean, check the lowest level that requires a dust wrapper, I have returned many volumes that should have come with one but did not, the book dealer did not describe it correctly.

[seaforths]

Why do we collect? I'm not sure any of us could give a really convincing reason. For me it's having the book as it originally appeared which I feel brings me closer to the author. I enjoy reading War poetry but it somehow feels different when I'm reading from the 1st edition. It's a completely intangible thing that it's virtually impossible to convey to a non-collector. Maybe we're all just a little mad.

What do I do with them - I read them and put them on the shelf & occassionally get them out and look at them again. Sad isn't it? But I wouldn't part with them for all the tea in China.

Thank you for sharing. Books are very personal things. Some people get into author ruts (Staffsyeoman are you reading this still?!) I tend to do that. I read a book by a certain author thoroughly enjoy it and end up getting the rest and if they are hardback, I often end up keeping them because I enjoyed them so much, I think I will re-read them at some point. As a result, I have boxes of books in the loft that I don't have shelf room for but they are there because I thought when the kids leave home - I will get more book cases and they will be read one more time and then I will let them go. Now, I am a little concerned I've inherited something from my mother, who died with shelves full of books that she intended to re-read (actually, she could conceivably have done it as she wasn't so old when she died). So you see why I am not a collector, just a hoarder of books (I don't hoard anything else). Now, when I feel I am in an author rut, I get the cheapest paperback versions or ebook if they are cheaper. I've never done that with WW1 books but my husband has - his author rut was Lyn MacDonald books and he duly presented me with them and quite offended he was when I didn't want them - that's what I mean by personal. I have nothing against her or the books she writes. How could I? I've never read one.

The choices people make are very deliberate and personal ones. I tend to buy a WW1 book that will; interest me as a book in in its own right - as a book I hope I will enjoy reading, will be useful to me for research or, it is in an area of the war I don't know much about and would like to know more and maybe I will be lucky enough to pick up a book that seems to have a history all of its own. I have re-read some of my books maybe two or three times (my downfall is I tend to read quickly and I can't help it) when I re-read, it tends to be slower and I see more that I perhaps missed the first time and if I get them down again to look for/at something, it's a bit like meeting an old friend again. I will sometimes know what I'm looking for exactly and where to find it. With books I am still unfamiliar with, I get frustrated if there is no index and will go through it and it may have sticky thingies poking out the pages for some time to come.

Madness? No - I don't think there is anything mad about being collecting and having a preference on books or a certain type of book, the madness is in the prices

Someone once said to me, there is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness, I immediately thought of three that cross the line (for me), none of which are collectors, having just said that, two of them might loosely be involved with collecting (but I think they are mad as march hares anyway - in a quirky kind of way)...I'm not going to say what my choices are, you will have to think of your own!

[Black Maria]

That's exactly the type of vocabulary and description that completely bamboozles me and results in a list of direct questions. I did once ask for a partial refund on a book I had asked about regarding the condition, one of my questons was regards marking in pen/pencil, stains etc. I found a number of underlinings and markings on some of the pages in coloured pencil. He said that he couldn't be expected to check every page of every book he sold, and begrudgingly, gave me an acceptable refund. I discovered that although it was in coloured pencil, it did rub out very easily. However, the point was, I asked the question and should have had an honest and accurate response. It's different if you are buying in a shop, you can see for yourself the condition of the book and make a decision based on what you see, as to whether you will make a purchase. Buying online seems to be a different kettle of fish altogether and some element of luck and trust involved. The vocabulary seems to have different meanings to the buyer/seller.

DJC's quote is quite apt and probably quite accurate too.

I agree with you, if you have taken the trouble to asked for a description, then the seller should be as accurate as possible. In my case there were other copies of the book for sale so

I had based my decision on the price and condition left by the seller, like Keith I sell a few of my unwanted books on Amazon and I always try to be as accurate as possible when

describing condition. I do understand though that if you sell hundreds of books it can be difficult to thoroughly check everyone , but listing a book that is eighty years old as "near fine"

is asking for trouble, unless it is near perfect. I do notice that some bigger sellers on Amazon do issue the warning " may contain pen marks and underlining" and personally I would

steer clear of such sellers. I suppose that book buying is a bit of a learning curve, one thing I have learnt is to check every page and illustration as soon as the book arrives, but even

then you can still get caught out unless you careful when checking the contents page, I once had a book where the last page was missing but because it was an epilogue page I didn't

notice it straight away.

[MartH]

Here are the Amazon book description guidelines

Collectible books

Must be signed, a limited first edition, out of print, or have other desirable qualities that could reasonably be assumed to increase the book's value to a collector--you will have an opportunity to say why. We suggest that you list such books at a price higher than the Amazon.co.uk price.

New books

Brand-new, unused, unread and in perfect condition.

Used books

• Like New: an apparently unread copy in perfect condition. Dust cover is intact with no nicks or tears. Spine has no signs of creasing. Pages are clean and not marred by notes or folds of any kind. Books may contain a remainder mark on an outside edge, but this should be noted in the listing comments. Any accompanying CDs or DVDs must be present and any access codes relating to the same, or to other content, must be present and unredeemed.
• Very Good: a copy that has been read, but is in excellent condition. Pages are intact and not marred by notes or highlighting. The spine remains undamaged. Any accompanying CDs or DVDs must be present and any access codes relating to the same, or to other content, must be present and unredeemed.
• Good: a copy that has been read but remains in clean condition. All pages are intact and the cover is intact (including the dust cover, if applicable). The spine may show signs of wear. Pages can include limited notes and highlighting, and the copy can include "From the library of" labels. Books may have any accompanying access codes for additional or replacement content missing or redeemed.
• Acceptable: a readable copy. All pages and the cover are intact (the dust cover may be missing). Pages can include considerable notes--in pen or highlighter--but notes cannot obscure the text. Books may have any accompanying access codes for additional or replacement content missing or redeemed.

Good upwards requires a dust wrapper unless otherwise stated, something many booksellers fail to describe, which if I'm buying gets a polite query pointing out the error of their ways. I also often remind them that as a rule of thumb a missing dj devalues the book by 50%, which is harsh but true.

[hazelclark]

Marjorie are you stirring things up again?

I "bought" three books on Saturday from ABE books. Today, two of them were cancelled, presumably because they were sold already?!!?

Hazel

[Black Maria]

Marjorie are you stirring things up again?

I "bought" three books on Saturday from ABE books. Today, two of them were cancelled, presumably because they were sold already?!!?

Hazel

I think that is one of the advantages with purchasing through Amazon rather than ABE, if a seller on Amazon cancels your order you can leave negative feedback which can

be quite serious for the seller if they get enough of them, but with ABE if the seller cancels it only affects their star rating , which doesn't really count for much anyway.

[John(txic)]

BM, the dealer I chatted to told me that ABE get very shirty with the dealer if their ratio of completed sales/cancelled sales goes awry and threaten to suspend them.

But ABE also sometimes re-list Items that the dealer has previously deleted...

[Black Maria]

BM, the dealer I chatted to told me that ABE get very shirty with the dealer if their ratio of completed sales/cancelled sales goes awry and threaten to suspend them.

That's quite good news then, I suppose it's more frustrating to have a book cancelled on ABE because you have no come back, the last time it happened to me on

Amazon I left negative feedback , partly because the seller couldn't be bothered to apologize but mainly because it made me feel better

[hazelclark]

I'm with B.M. on this one. The books in question were not available on Amazon, and I have now had ANOTHER book cancelled. That makes TWO from one seller in a few days. Don't know about this Abe Books!

Hazel

That's quite good news then, I suppose it's more frustrating to have a book cancelled on ABE because you have no come back, the last time it happened to me on

Amazon I left negative feedback , partly because the seller couldn't be bothered to apologize but mainly because it made me feel better

[Phil Evans]

Hazel,

Have you contacted Abebooks and named and shamed the seller?

It will make you feel better

Phil

[Black Maria]

I'm with B.M. on this one. The books in question were not available on Amazon, and I have now had ANOTHER book cancelled. That makes TWO from one seller in a few days. Don't know about this Abe Books!

Hazel

Yes it's very annoying, sometimes I look at their star ratings and if they only have one star I assume there is a good chance my order will be cancelled. There was a book

I was interested in from an ABE seller in the U.S, I requested a scan of the dust jacket, that was about six months ago and I'm still waiting for a reply, maybe some sellers

don't really want to sell their books?

[hazelclark]

Hazel,

Have you contacted Abebooks and named and shamed the seller?

It will make you feel better

Phil

I have done that very thing! It made me feel better, but I suspect that is all it will do. I think the reason this shocked me so much is that it hasn't happened to me before. With Amazon they seem to either have the book or not, and although they may advertise it, if they don't actually have it in stock they do tell you before you order.

Hazel