Battle of Neuve Chapelle, 1915

[Jon Miller]

Hi

I'm also looking into the Battle of Neuve Chapelle at the moment, though not in quite the detail as above. My focus of attention is the 1st Sherwood Foresters, and their position during 10/12 March 1915. I have previously copied out the appropriate parts of the War Diary, and it does give certain positions so many hundred yards N or NE from Neuve Chapelle etc. However, this still leaves a fair amount of uncertainty from my view. Such positions as 85 and 86 as points to be attacked, and farms 92 and 94 are all mentioned in the diary or battle report, but I have no record of a sketch map that was alluded to (whether it was missing, or I missed it, I don't know). I suspect one of the farms mentioned might have been the Moated Grange, but currently, all is speculative.

If anyone can show me, or direct me to a map which could help me sort any of this out, or give me map references to these numbered positions mentioned, so I could use a later trench map to pinpoint them, it would be extremely helpful.

Thank you

Jon.

[phil andrade]

The casualties for a part of the German 7th Army, the IR 16 "Infanterie-Regiment Freiherr von Sparr (3. Westfälisches) Nr. 16"

(from the "Erinnerungsblätter deutscher Regimenter - Berlin 1927")

Killed 6 officers 111 other ranks

Wounded 1 officer 398 other ranks

Missing 20 officers 827 other ranks

Thank you very much for this, JWK.

Judging by the great preponderance of missing in this casualty list, this unit was one of those overrun in the initial attack, with a concomitant loss of prisoners .

The proportion of killed to wounded ( about 1: 3.4) bears a similarity to that of the British return in the C-i-C dispatch.

Incidentally, if - as one of our posters suggests - Sir John French was putting a positive spin on the casualties in this dispatch, it's odd that he would present an inflated British total.

Any more information you are willing and able to post about the German casualties would be appreciated.

Phil (PJA)

[JWK]

The Regimental History does not say much more :

"Of the missing, the Regimentscommander Oberstleutnant von Hassel and the staff of 3rd Bataillon amongst them, a large part can be counted amongst the dead. They rest, where it was possible to retrieve the bodies , now in the heroes’ cemetery near Illies. "

If you scan their casualty-list you see an awful of "Missing" on 10/11/12 march 1915

There is one puzzling entry in the book: the start of the Battle of Neuve-Chapelle

"Early in the morning of 10th march there were many enemy aeroplanes to be seen. At 08:30 in the morning an English aeroplane dropped a bag of paper scraps, and immediately a tremendous artillery barrage on our frontlines started. "

Paper scraps ? ("Papierschnitzel")

[phil andrade]

Thanks again, JWK.

Perhaps the paper scraps were some kind of marking device for the guns to aim at.

If a large part of the German missing were dead, then might we not assume that the same applied to the British ?

Phil (PJA)

[JWK]

Maybe this little part of a letter belongs here as well.

Written by Fritz Limbach, a German recrute, based in Don which is about 10-12 kms from the frontline (More or less halfway between La Bassée and Lille/Rijssel)

(And it's from the "Fritz Limbach - Letters from the front - 1915" thread here :

From his letter to his family, Don 10th March 1915 :

Today a lot was going on at the front, two wounded soldiers from La Bassée told us.

The English have attacked again. Near La Bassée we managed to repel the attack, with terrible losses for the English.

Near Neuve Chapelle they managed to gain some ground, but we want to drive them back tonight.

I have never heard such terrifying thunder of canons before. It was impossible to distinguish between separate shots even.

It’s like a constant roar, the whole day long.

…

But got to stop, we’re expecting Grand Alert tonight, so I want have my rucksack packed now.

Hopefully I can then unpack it again tomorrowmorning”

So if it sounded terrifying 10-12 kms away from the front, how would it have sounded át the front?

Deafening and beyond terrifying I'd imagine. *shivers*

[MikeMeech]

There is one puzzling entry in the book: the start of the Battle of Neuve-Chapelle

"Early in the morning of 10th march there were many enemy aeroplanes to be seen. At 08:30 in the morning an English aeroplane dropped a bag of paper scraps, and immediately a tremendous artillery barrage on our frontlines started. "

Paper scraps ? ("Papierschnitzel")

Hi

This may be a case of 'misinterpretation' of what was seen, as in 'Storm of Steel' Junger 'misinterprets' the sound of the RFC Klaxon (this called for British infantry to show their location) as it was followed a little later by an artillery barrage.

By Neuve Chapelle the RFC's artillery spotters had been using, from the end of 1914, pyrotechnics - combination of red and green lights and a smoke ball + aircraft manoeuvres, or Lamp and wireless signalling to range the guns. Indeed at Neuve ChapelleC the 'Clock Code' was used (a certain Capt. Dowding was involved I believe) which would indicate the use of wireless or lamp to send corrections.

However, 'paper' may have been used for some other purpose as experiments (in battle) went on throughout the war. Indeed 'paper' devices dropped from aeroplanes came up again in late 1917 during the 'Great Contact Patrol Survey' (my term) instigated by GHQ.

On 18th February 1918 a series of tests were carried out by II Corps under the auspices of the Fourth Army for GHQ on various equipment suggested in the survey for both ground and air signalling devices. This included the dropping of 'Xmas Paper Streamers', 'Paper Balloons' and 'Silver Tinsel', basically these were found to be "useless". The best device in the trials was a 'Yellow Smoke Bomb' that burst into 14 smoke balls. These were devices to replace the white Very light that was in use and would have been used in conjunction with the Klaxon.

I also seem to recall the Germans using something 'tinsel' like very early in the war for artillery spotting but can't find the source at present so it may be a 'false or confused memory' of mine.

All sides came up with quite similar solutions to similar problems as might be expected.

I hope that is of interest.

Mike

[MikeMeech]

Hi

Reference my last post #31, I have had it look through my sources but cannot find the mention of German's using tinsel/paper, so could have been a 'confused memory'. So for artillery spotting on all sides in the early war years when wireless was unavailable use was made of smoke bombs/Very lights or Signal Lamp. This does not rule out experiments with other forms of signalling but from 1915 it appears wireless was the primary signalling device and other forms only used if that was not available for use for British, French or Germans.

Mike

[Stoppage Drill]

The WW1 section of my parish war memorial has thirteen names. Three of these died at Neuve Chapelle, which is statistically surprising.

[phil andrade]

Did the three die in the actual battle of March 1915, or did they die in that sector at one time or another in the war ? The war was notorious for " localising" mortality, in so far as single battles impinged heavily on communities which were unlucky in the deployment of their men ; even so, as you say, it's a strikingly high proportion for a battle that claimed fewer than one per cent of all British lives lost on the Western Front 1914-18.

Phil (PJA)

[Stoppage Drill]

The three men died between 10-12 March. 1 Wilts.

Strangely enough, two men out of 13 on the next village's memorial died there too, but in the 1914 fighting. Brothers, 1 Wilts again.

[phil andrade]

It's touched a lot of us, that battle.

Those men from 1 Wilts. My own family. There was an old man who I employed , who had been a serving soldier in the BEF of 1940, evacuated from Dunkirk, and his father had been killed in the Great War. When I asked him where his father had died, his reply was immediate : " Neuve Chapelle ".

Phil (PJA)

[Neil Mackenzie]

Jon

The link below is to an account of Neuve Chapelle for 1st Worcesters. However your 1/Sherwood Foresters get plenty of mentions as well and there is a map showing where points 85/86 were so will hopefully be of some use.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_neuve_chapelle

Neil

[NickPS]

For those of you thinking of visiting Neuve Chapelle; there is an annual service at the Indian cemetery on 12 November, organised by the Indian Embassy and featuring a touching combination of Indian pipers and local school children. It's always humbling to stare across the flat wet fields of Northern France and wonder what on earth the brave Indian sepoys must have made of it all. There is also a small reception afterwards in the Salle des Fetes in Neuve Chapelle, where one usually has the opportunity to dry or thaw out. Or both.

[Michelle Young]

Phil, 

Respects paid today 

[phil andrade]

Michelle,

 

Thank you so much for that.

 

To say that I’ve been touched by your kind tribute would be something of an understatement .

 

🌺

 

Phil

[Marilyne]

Just seeing this thread popping up again... I heard at the yearly ceremony at the NATO memorial that a new Indian monument is planned to be unveiled next year in the field between the actual Indian memorial to the missing and the Portugese cemetery. I'm in contact with the Indian responsible for it and will keep you all updated on it.

 

M.

[Guest]

Hi 

I have just joined the forum and have an interest in the Battle of Neuve Chapelle , my 3x Great uncle Private Thomas Smith was a member of D Company 2nd Battalion Scots Rifles, he survived the battle but died on May 26th 1915 , he was a regular soldier who joined the Cameronians in 1907 . I have been researching him and the Battle . Attached are some of my discoveries . I have his medals but sadly no photograph of him .

All the previous posts are really interesting with some great information .

 

Pete 

 

 

[phil andrade]

Welcome, Pete !

 

Using CWGC database, I see that about 3,900 British and Indian soldiers died on the Western Front between the 10th and 13th of March 1915, which are the dates of the battle. Some of these died  in sectors other than Neuve Chapelle : but it’s a fair assumption that 3,500 of them were casualties of the battle.  There’s poignant evidence in the photograph of my great uncle’s grave  that Michelle was kind enough to provide in post number 39 that men who were mortally wounded died in the days after the battle’s official closure : William Andrade died of wounds on the 15th of March, several days after he had been hit by shell fire when the battle was raging. There must have been more who suffered his fate, as exemplified by your own GGG Uncle.

 

Phil

[Grantp08]

Hi Pete. 

 

My relative was also a pre-war regular in the battalion. It's been mentioned above but I'd recommend  "Morale: A study of men and courage" by John Baynes if you haven't already seen it. You can pick a copy up on eBay easily enough. 

 

Cheers. 

[morrisc8]

Hope you dont mind me putting these up, just to show some of the areas. air photos dated 1917 that i have of Bois Du Biez wood and Aubers photo that was captured by the Germans from a british officer [ i think that what it says in german ].  If anyone wants a high res scan of the recon photos, just let me know.

  Keith

Edited 26 November , 2019 by morrisc8

[Open Bolt]

Fantastic pictures Keith, thank you.