Why would a Royal Fusilier transfer to the Cameronian Scottish Rifles

[Kev R]

I'm trying to discover as much as possible about a relative, Charles Henry Norman Shutte. He was in the 1st Bn Cameronian Scottish Rifles (Reg No. 42043), KIA aged 19 on 21/9/18 and now lies in Meath Cemetery, Villers Guislane. I am only able to find the medal roll, which tells me that he was formerly in the Royal Fusiliers (Reg No. G/50744), but nothing more.

- Could anyone tell me if it is common for soldiers to transfer Regiments mid war, i can't get my head around why this would be.

- As i can't find anything else, his journey is an intriguing mystery, anybody any ideas how i could try to trace it, no records on ancestry i could find

- Also, what exactly was happening in Villers Guislane around the time of his death, i visited earlier this month and there are a shed load of cemeteries around there but little info i can find on a significant major battle.

Any thoughts would be great

[stevem49]

Very common - you got sent wherever the army needed you. He may have been wounded/ill/injured and when he returned moved to another regiment.

I presume his papers have not survived as you have the MIC.

Steve M

[Kev R]

No Regimental loyalty then!

the medal card just states corps and reg Nos, no dates.

No pension or service records on ancestry that match

[sotonmate]

Meath Cemetery has 43 other Scot Rifles casualties,39 killed on 21st Sep and 4 killed on 22 Sep 1918. The other 100+ casualties from the Cemetery were also killed on 21st. There had been heavy fighting in and around the village during Sept 1918.

You could get to see the War Diary which will give you the activity surrounding this period:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353827

The original Medal Roll for this soldier's medals is at Kew in ledger WO329/1124 page1686,which, whilst completed by the Scottish Rifles at war's end,will likely have the Battalion of the RF that he first landed with. Also,Soldiers Died in the Great War shows that he was originally G/9819 Royal West Kent. As this wasn't on his Medal Index Card you can take it that he didn't go overseas with them.

[johnboy]

If you go to Long Long Trail, top left of this page you will be able to find out which divisions the Regiments were in and where they fought.

[Kev R]

Certainly makes sense, he may well have joined up with the West Kent, he came from the Dartford area.

Many thanks for your time people, your advice is appreciated, sounds like he got around a bit. On the off chance he got injured as a RF and then joined the Scots Rifles when better, would any records of a stay in hospital be recorded anywhere other than his personal records?

[sotonmate]

You would be extremely fortunate to find any sickness or wounding information without a service record,other than possibly finding him in a "Times" newspaper casualty list,which in itself would be a long drawn-out task. The medical records are mostly gone now,they keep a token representative sample of Admission and Discharge registers for some Hospitals,Field Ambulances and Casualty Clearing Stations in the MH106 series of records at Kew.

You might get some direction from finding which RF Battalion he fought with,which would give you a Division and from that the Field Ambulances of that Division,each of the three would have a War Diary and you might see where they sent casualties. From that you might trace one of the above elements and an A&D Register.

[centurion]

He could have been initially in one of the training battalions of the Royal Fusiliers and then when he was ready to go to the front the Cameronians had more need of men so he was drafted there. From his age I'd say there wasn't time for him to have been wounded with the Royal Fusiliers, been treated, recovered and then sent to the Cameronians

[Kev R]

Thanks for your time everyone. I'll keep digging

[Smithy26]

My apologies, I know this is an ancient thread, but i am resurrecting it after Googling Charles Shutte for my recent investigations into Cameronians casualties in WW1.

Kev, dont know if you have seen the 2 pics attached claimed to be Charles?  Taken from different sources.  They look like they could be same man to me?  The one in which he's wearing a Glengarry though adds a further mystery to the mix.....

The Glengarry he has on has a diced headband, which is not Cameronians - there's was all black at the time.  It could be R.Scots, HLI or R.Scots Fus??  He may have only been with one of them for matter of days, got his picture taken, before being transferred permanently to the Cameronians and it was not deemed important enough to mention on MIC or Medal Roll as a unit he served with?  Only his Soldiers papers could be definite about this.  It was extremely common to have men bounce from regiment to regiment wherever they were needed during WW1.  My great uncle joined the Argyles but was transferred to Gordon Highlanders and was killed with them 1918.  Also in this picture he has a Good Conduct stripe on Left Sleeve, so must have been in for a while by time of this photo.

 Going by the MIC & Medal Roll i think his service was as follows :

Original enlistment as G/9819 Pte. R.W.Kents at Dartford 1916. Due to his age - 17, he stayed in UK training.

Transferred as G/50744 Pte. 26th R.Fusiliers 1916 or 1917.

Landed in France with R.Fus 1917 (as he was 18 by then).  I believe the R.Fus are first regiment mentioned on MIC as it only covers Overseas Service, he never left UK with RWKs.

Transferred as 42043 Pte 2nd Bttn Cameronians 1917 or 1918. 

Transferred to 1st Bttn Cameronians 1918.

 

Cheers,

Smithy

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. @Kev R visited the forum last in April. I've tagged him so hopefully he will pick this up.

Michelle 

[Kev R]

Michelle, thanks for tagging me

Smithy, thank you for you thoughts. It does seem that he was keen to enlist, the story in the family being that he signed up under age, got across the channel and his mother managed to get his elder brother(s) to go and find him and bring him back.  He simply ran off again though when back home and in the end she let him go.

I believe I may have posted those photos, the first being a family photo which is believed to be him.

Below is a transcript from the local paper,  which is where the second picture has come from and which may answer why the head band is diced, would it suit the KOSB?..... 

His brother's all survived the war by the way.

Dartford Chronicle and District Times Friday 25^th October 1918.

 

Mr and Mrs Shutte of 16 Fulwich Road, Dartford are mourning the loss of their youngest son, Private Charles Henry Norman Shutte, who was killed in action on September 21^st, at the age of 19.

Private Shutte enlisted in the Royal West Kent Regiment, at the age of 16. He was sent to France in October 1916 and transferred to the Royal Fusiliers. He was in action on the Somme and was sent home as under age in January 1917 by the wish of his parents and later went to rejoin and was transferred to the Kings Own Scottish Borderers. He was sent to Ireland thence to Scotland and drafted into the Cameronians and was sent to France again in March of this year.

He was an old Yorks Road school boy and was a member of the St. Alban’s Troop of Scouts. He worked at the London Paper Mills and …….. at the Dartford Cinema. He was a bright, sunny lad and his loss to his parents, brothers and sisters is irreplaceable.

His three brothers are still serving, John and George with the RAMC in France and Will with the R.E. in Egypt.

[Smithy26]

Kev,

yes could be KOSBs aswell, i missed them from my list.  Seems odd that the KOSBs are not mentioned in his medal documents?

Smithy

 

[FROGSMILE]

The photo does have the appearance of KOSB, whose badge was quite large.

[Kev R]

Certainly does look like a match gents, thank you for spotting it. Another little chunk of info in his life filled, in spite of my personal ignorance on it, thank you both. Without his service record it's difficult to know exactly what happened, why and when but he was certainly a determined and brave young man, who paid the ultimate price.

@Smithy26 may I ask what your interest is in particular, I might have some info that can assist.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Kev R said:

Certainly does look like a match gents, thank you for spotting it. Another little chunk of info in his life filled, in spite of my personal ignorance on it, thank you both. Without his service record it's difficult to know exactly what happened, why and when but he was certainly a determined and brave young man, who paid the ultimate price.

@Smithy26 may I ask what your interest is in particular, I might have some info that can assist.

His death in September 1918 is likely to have been connected with the Battle of Amiens or the subsequent advance often referred to as ‘the Last One Hundred Days’, when after that battle an inexorable and sustained momentum built up to push the German Army backwards until the declaration of the Armistice.  The British and Commonwealth casualties were high, as the fighting was desperate, but the pressure was kept up right until the end.  The bulk of the infantry participating at that time were the 19-year olds sent out from graduated battalions of the Reserve Training system in Britain in order to constantly reinforce the front line battalions.

Edited 22 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Kev R]

He died in the battle of Epehy, attacking towards Meath trench up the hill from Epehy towards Villers Guislane. He now lies in Meath cemetery, alongside a number of his Cameronian colleagues, situated on the ridge line at the top of the hill, just next to the trench line.

I actually have a picture somewhere of his mother at his grave, I imagine she was thinking "I told you so son!"

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, Kev R said:

He died in the battle of Epehy, attacking towards Meath trench up the hill from Epehy towards Villers Guislane. He now lies in Meath cemetery, alongside a number of his Cameronian colleagues, situated on the ridge line at the top of the hill, just next to the trench line.

I actually have a picture somewhere of his mother at his grave, I imagine she was thinking "I told you so son!"

It’s a sad story….among so many sad stories.

NB.  Epehy was after Amiens and one of the earlier battles during the 100 days.

Edited 22 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Smithy26]

4 hours ago, Kev R said:

Certainly does look like a match gents, thank you for spotting it. Another little chunk of info in his life filled, in spite of my personal ignorance on it, thank you both. Without his service record it's difficult to know exactly what happened, why and when but he was certainly a determined and brave young man, who paid the ultimate price.

@Smithy26 may I ask what your interest is in particular, I might have some info that can assist.

As i said earlier, Cameronians casualties of WW1 is what i have been researching.

Anyone who has any photos of one of the 7,027 men of the Regimental casualties, scans gratefully received. (I have copies of all the IWM, DeRuvignys, Glasgow Uni ones already)

Smithy